BERT: I believe there is. We’re at a critical point right now in this nation. But there’s been too many deep wells of revival planted in this nation throughout history. We’ve sent out too much, too many missionaries, too many gospels. There’s righteous seed in this nation and God’s purposes are never vindictive. He’s not looking to punish America. His purposes are always redemptive. So there is hope for this nation because there is a godly remnant, a strong godly remnant that is still living in this nation.
SID: Now we have had revivals in several areas of our country. Nothing compared to those zones that where people would just bow down on the ground and on their knees, and repent over sin where no one was even preaching. But you saw the closest we’ve had. You were out at Brownsville. What did you see?
BERT: The week that I went down there and the services that was in, that I was in, were electric. I mean, people were lining up outside from early morning to early evening to get into the services. And when I walked in there, I could feel the electricity in there. And during the service, those particular services, I remember they mic(ed) little children in the back room, seven, eight, nine years old, moaning and groaning, and travailing. They had mics on them in the Spirit, having this consciousness of God and eternity and the lostness of the world. And I remember one of those services they put in on the platform, they put these large trash bins. And the evangelist was talking about articles of affection that we all have in our lives, and he was calling for repentance. It was a strong call for repentance that night. And he had people come up, people that had addictions, people that were bound by these, what he called these different articles of affection. He had, you know, anything from drug paraphernalia to cigarettes, to pornographic magazines. I mean, people came up with all this trash and threw it in these trash bins and they had a rejoicing party, people repenting, people crying over their sins and then being set free from all these addictions. That’s, that was the week I went. There was a tremendous altar calls, hundreds, there was crying, tears of great, great crying, weeping and then tears followed by tears of great joy and rejoicing.
SID: You told me during the break that you have an unction to pray for miracles and fire. Would you do that right now.
BERT: Yes. Father, I thank you right now for the Spirit of God. There is no distance in the Spirit. And right now wherever people are watching in cities and nations here and across the world, I thank you now for your holy fire. I thank you Father for a revelation of Jesus Christ flooding across these nations right now, and dreams and visions being given to many that would reveal Christ to them and cause an explosion of holy fire that would ignite within them even now. And Father, those that are sick, those that are diseased, tormented, chronic sicknesses, terminal sicknesses, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Father, I release now that power and anointing of power to go into these people’s bodies. I see people in hospital beds right now that are watching this. In the name of Jesus Christ, get up from your bed. Get up from your deathbed. Be free from your cancer and your terminal diseases. In the name of Jesus Christ, receive that healing power and that healing anointing right there in your room where you are through a transfer, a transfer of God’s Holy Spirit right now. In Jesus’ name be healed now. Cripples, be healed. Those that can’t even hear maybe watching television, have problems with your ears, in the name of Jesus, ears be open, deaf and dumb spirits come out in the name of Jesus. Those that are having problems with their eyes even blindness, in Jesus name, eyes be open, blindness go, demons leave in Jesus’ name. Be free right now of every damnable disease that is impoverishing your life right now by the power to the glory of Jesus Christ. Amen.
SID: I tell you, joints are being healed right now. I tell you that there is joy in Heaven over one sinner that repents.
SID: You say I’m that one. You repent of your sin. Do I have to tell you? No, you know what it is. You tell Jesus you’re sorry. Believe the blood of Jesus gives you the power and washes away your sin so you can walk the way you’ve always wanted to. Make Jesus your Lord and watch the angels in Heaven start rejoicing just for you. You know I’m talking to you. Now do business with God.
BERT: Yes, yes, yes.
SID: You talk about keys so that we can really understand.
SID: What God’s will is. I mean, so many people are almost paralyzed.
SID: For fear they’re going to do something wrong, so they don’t do anything.
SID: And then they go their whole life doing nothing, and they had a whole destiny ahead of themselves. One of your keys that you talk about is determine that you’re going to be led by God and nothing else.
KAREN: Everybody that I know wants to be led by God. They want to hear his plan. They want to obey him and move, but they don’t necessarily know the track to take. But when we determine that we’re going to be led by him, in other words, Father I’m not going to do anything until I hear from you, that requires several things from us. We first have to seek him. Right? And so if you’re facing a major decision or you’re looking for God’s direction in life, you have to decide, first of all, most important, I’m going to see God about this and nothing else. We make decisions based on money. We make decisions based on lack of money. We make decisions based on circumstances or feelings, or opinions of other people, or we make our own pro-con list, you know, and we have to remember that, like Proverbs 3:5-6 says, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Don’t lean to your understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he’ll make your path straight.” Our understanding is one thing, but we understand in a very limited way, don’t we?
SID: So give me an example like tragedy hits your whole family. How did this play out?
KAREN: Yes. Well you know, when I was 37 years old and my first husband was 37 years old, he died. We were pastoring a church. He just was sick, suddenly, just went home to be with the Lord. My sons were 12 and 13 years old. And so you can imagine I just had major decisions to make every day, all day instead of taking advice from other people, which is important and good, but you need to weigh everything by what the Holy Spirit is saying to you. And so I had to spend extra, extra time in the Word of God. You know, the Bible is God talking to us and it’s how I walked out this whole, I had to take over pastoring our church and raising teenage sons, and I really needed the Word of the Lord in my life more than anything. And it probably, you know, grounded me inside of me.
SID: Not to mention, even though you sorted it out, you had to, coming from your husband was a graduate of Rhema, too.
SID: And coming from that background, when something like that happens, it’s just not supposed to happen.
SID: And in addition, having sorting out why your husband died suddenly and having two children to raise, and pastoring a church.
KAREN: Yes. And so I spent that time pressing into his Word. And by that I mean I read it a lot. I meditated on it. I, you know, there’s a scripture in Psalm 119 that says, “Lord [except] for your Word I would have perished in my affliction.” And that was me. I read it like a five-year-old learning to read, ran my hand down the page because the Bible is God talking to us, and that’s how we learn to recognize his voice.
SID: Tell me a little bit more about that because that is key to recognize God’s voice. You said practice, but tell me a little more about that.
KAREN: Well think about it. If the Bible is God talking to us then we need to hear him talking to us. And if we familiarize ourself with the Bible, we read it a lot, we’ll find out how he leads people, how he guides people, what he sounds like, you know. And I use this analogy, because I heard one time that the U.S. Treasury Department trains their agents to recognize a counterfeit bill by giving them the real bills. And they touch them, and they smell them, and they put them under a microscope, and they look at them a long time so that they’re so familiar with the real that if a counterfeit comes along they notice it right away. And what if we as Christians, as believers, as people who love God get into the Word of God so much we understand the real that if a counterfeit idea, you know, the devil comes along or our own voice comes along, we recognize it right away.
SID: Now you were trying to decide something. What was God telling you to do?
KAREN: When I was pastoring our church after my husband passed away and God started talking to me about moving to Tulsa, and I didn’t want to because I loved the Northwest and my family and friends were there, and Tulsa is in the Midwest. And you know, and so I made my own pro-con list, and under pro it said, “Because God said so.” And under con it said, “Because I don’t want to move there and my friends and family are here.” And the con list was about ten things long, and the pro list was about one. And if I had gone by a pro-con list, I would have voted con and stayed there, and been out of God’s will. So we can’t go necessarily by our own idea of a pro-con list.
SID: How did it turn out?
KAREN: It turned out good. I moved to Tulsa and I ended up, you know, got to teach at Rhema and really travel the world, and preach. And so who know where I would be if I hadn’t obeyed God.
SID: If she wasn’t determined to follow God and no one else. Now what is the difference between hearing his audible voice or promptings? Everyone is looking for his audible voice.
KAREN: Yeah. And really most of us are to be led by the inward witness. You know, the Bible teaches us that we are a threefold being. You know, we live in a body. We have a soul, but we are a spirit and the part of us that’s a spirit, the born again part, is just like Jesus. It’s just like God. And so then we are meant to hear his voice. He said in John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.” And so we are meant to recognize his voice, but we hear it as a prompting from the inward man, from the Spirit, the Holy Spirit speaking to us. I like to call it a knowing in your knower.
SID: Okay. Give me an example of a prompting when you were driving late at night.
KAREN: Yeah. One time I was on I-5 driving, you know. And in my family, if you get tired while you’re driving, I was all by myself, we just pull over to the side of the road and take a nap. And so I was tired, I pulled over, I leaned the seat back and I went to sleep. And I don’t know how long I had been sleeping, but all of a sudden, the Lord just prompted me. I got this inward witness that just woke me up, and I sat bolt upright, and I felt the Holy Spirit say, “Move now.” And so I put the seat up, I started the car, and I moved. And really, that’s the end of the story, which it turned out good because nothing bad happened. Who knows, maybe a, you know, trucker was sleepy and he would have veered off the road right then and squashed my little Honda like a bug. And so, you know, I listened to the Holy Spirit and he gave me that inward witness, and I obeyed him.
SID: Tell me about your son’s experience where you learned how important it is, and listen to this, watch your mouth.
KAREN: Yes. That’s one of the keys to hearing the voice of God because we need to be sure our words agree with the Bible, you know, because the Bible is what we’re following. It’s our roadmap for our destiny. And if we talk opposite of it, say somebody goes in their prayer closet and they say, “Lord, please help me, direct me, guide me, let me know your direction for my life,” and then they come out of their prayer closet and you ask them, “So what are you going to do?” And they go, “I don’t know, I can’t hear from God.” They just said the opposite of what they prayed.
SID: And they got the opposite.
KAREN: Yeah, exactly. And so my son, you know, he was facing graduation. He was an ORU senior and everybody asked him, like you ask all graduates, you know, what are you going to do when you graduate, and he didn’t know. And he hated to have to keep saying, I don’t know, because he’s been praying to know. And so finally one day he said to me, “Mom, I’ve come up with the answer. When people ask me, what are you going to do after graduation, I’m going to say, I’ll know when the time comes.”
SID: Much better.
KAREN: That way he keeps his word in agreement with the Word.
SID: I like that.
SID: Okay. When we come back you’re going to find out one of the most important keys. And I mean, it’s been deemphasized in our society and shame on you that are deemphasizing this. It’s called tongues, supernatural languages.
SID: This is where the power is. We’ll be right back.
SID: You know Gary, during the commercial break, you told me how important money is. Sickness, it’s very important to get on top of that.
SID: But money affects everyone, everything. I even read that’s the number one cause of divorces.
GARY: Yes. Yes. You know, you can talk about issues and of course we’re not downplaying any of those issues, but the point is money affects everyone. And if you’re in debt or you’re in lack, and you’re in this financial stranglehold it’s, it actually sucks the life out of you, sucks all the vision, all the hope, and it aims everything in just survival. And it’s amazing how you begin to think in survival mode how you just try to make it through one more week until Friday night, you know. I tell people God really wants you to not like Friday night and love Monday morning because you’re so passionate about what you’re doing in life. You’re not in survival mode just making a living. You’re like, I got to stop. It’s Friday night? I want to get back to Monday morning again.
SID: You even told me that the stress and worry of over money causes people to get sick.
GARY: Absolutely. I think stress, I think the study showed that stress does cause a large majority of the illnesses in our body.
SID: Okay. Would you say that lack of money is a curse?
GARY: Well I would agree it is, but I didn’t say that. The Bible did. Back in Genesis, Chapter 3, of course, Adam and Eve had no concerns. All their provision was there.
SID: What a life.
GARY: What a life. They were, man was made at the end of the sixth day designed to live in the seventh day, the day of rest. Now God wasn’t tired when it says that God rested. He was finished. Everything was complete. And so they didn’t have to worry. But Adam gave it all away. He rebelled against God. He lost that place of authority and dominion he had over the earth realm and God approached in Genesis, chapter 3, verse 17, and said, “Now by your own painful toil and sweat you’ll have to eat of the earth.” I call that the earth curse and that’s where everyone has grown up. That’s why “Everyone Wants to be a Millionaire” is so popular, that’s why the lottery is so popular. Everyone is tired of the wait of finding provision. Jesus said, “If the unbeliever runs in painful toil and sweat after the things of life” and that’s, everyone filters their direction by that. There’s a good job paying in California, I’ll move. There’s a better paying job over here. I’ll do that. And they miss their identity. See, Adam had to lose his identity. He was to take care of God’s stuff. He was created for a purpose and now he lost his purpose, and his purpose was survival and trying to find provision. And everyone has done that. Everyone is filtering every decision in this earth-cursed system through survival either running after money or if they have it, hoarding it because the only escape out of this rat race is to have more than enough.
SID: Now you say that we need to change. Kingdoms change laws. What do you mean?
GARY: Take a look at Luke, chapter 5 with Peter, James and John, Jesus walking on the shore comes there and they’ve been fishing all night. Jesus wants to borrow Peter’s boat and goes out, does borrow the boat, comes back in. Jesus says, “Go fish. GO fishing. Cast your net out.” And Peter said, “Master, we fished all night and got nothing, the earth cursed system. We’ve labored but nothing is there.” And then they didn’t catch just so many fish. The net is about broke and both boats, their, Peter’s and his partner’s James’ and John’s boats both about sank. What’s the difference? I began, as a spiritual scientist, I say. I say okay, why did that happen? Well you follow the story, when the boat was given to Jesus to use in ministry, the boat changed legal jurisdiction from the affairs of men, the dominion of men in the earth realm, to under the Kingdom of God’s jurisdiction. At that point, Jesus had a legality. Heaven had a legality in the earth realm where Heaven downloaded to Jesus where the fish were at. And Jesus said the fish are over there in the deep water. You and I can catch fish if Jesus told us where they were. And so the difference in my life, and God began to give me business ideas. He gave me a dream in the night to start a business. He began to show me where the fish were. He began to show me how to harvest. You know, the earth realm is such a poverty-driven system. It’s a lack-driven system to survive that peace, most people are looking for money and they have it all backwards. Money, God doesn’t have any money. Okay. All money is created in the earth realm by [ ] buying and selling. The Lord told me one time, “My church has learned to give but not have a harvest.” All right. So we have to know how the system works. In other words, since God has no money when you give, as we said in the illustration, Luke, chapter 5, when we sow, our money does change governments, gives God jurisdiction to create opportunities. I always say don’t look for money. God helps us create or capture opportunities to create wealth. So what happens, people are not taught, they will sow and they’re waiting with what I call mailbox mentality, waiting for it just to show up. They think someone is going to walk down the street and say, here’s a million dollars and of course it doesn’t happen that way. You can have a million dollar idea is how it happens.
SID: All right. Tell me about the cheesecake.
GARY: You’re talking about Chris. So he heard in our conference how God will download ideas, concepts, direction and he had nothing, no ideas, no money. But he said, “I make a really good cheesecake.” He said, “You know, I really make a healthy good cheesecake. I wonder if I can sell that.
SID: He can sell it to me. I’m looking for good cheesecake.
GARY: Well this was the first night of the conference. So he went home and made this cheesecake. He began to pray about what I was saying and he thought, I’m going to take this cheesecake down to the local health food store and see if they like it. So he took it down there the next day. It just so happened the CEO of the entire health food chain was there that day and tasted the cheesecake, and said it’s the best cheesecake he ever had. And so Chris comes to my meeting that night and comes up for prayer, and says, “I got this opportunity,” and he told me what happened, you know. “Thank you. I want to pray about this.” And so he comes back the next day all excited because the company had decided to actually give him a contract to bake cheesecakes. And then that Friday night of the conference, the CEO, who was visiting from California, came to our meeting, got born again, filled with the spirit because he was so impressed with what he heard Chris talk about.
SID: You know what I have found out that Gary has a gift and when he teaches according to this gift it’s not just for money. These laws work for everything.
SID: When we come back I want him to tell us about the secret weapon. Don’t go away.
SID: Hank Kunneman, one of the first times we got together when we started ministering, you gave me a personal prophecy. And I have to tell you, I, you know, I’ve been around a long time, and so I hear the prophecies and I know the ones that miss it and the ones that get it, and unfortunately too many miss it. But Hank said to me, “You know, Sid,” it was right after we did, I believe, a radio show. He said, “You know, Sid, I see you not being,” he didn’t use this word, I will, “a wandering Jew going from one studio to another to do your television show. You’re going to have your own studio. You’re going to have your own, the Lord is telling me you’re going to have your own equipment.” And do your remember telling me, prophesying that?
HANK: Yes I do. I remember that.
SID: You even went a step further though. He told me the name of the person that was going to sell me this studio, the studio you see today, he prophesied before I even knew about it. But you know, there’s so, thank you. You know, there are so many prophecies I’d like to talk to you about, but one in particular. For Oral Roberts to talk about you being the most accurate prophet he knows, you actually, if I understand right according to notes, you prophesied his death.
HANK: Yes, his going home actually.
SID: Tell me about that.
HANK: Yes. His wife had gone home to be with the Lord and I said to myself, he really wanted to go be with his wife.
SID: I know.
HANK: And I said, “What are you going to do?” He was 89. I said, “What are you going to do when you’re 91? And there shall be the sounds of Christmas bells, and just before Christmas, there shall be a gathering of angels and there shall be a welcoming home of you as one of God’s great generals that have walked this earth.” And he actually, December 15th on my dad’s birthday, at 91.
SID: Now I was told.
SID: Yes, that’s what I was told. He got upset with Hank because he was ready to see his wife and go to Heaven.
HANK: That’s right. He was ready to go then, but the Lord told him what age.
SID: Well there’s so many other things we can talk about. Just to kind of establish the authenticity of your words, you had some prophecies over former President Bill Clinton. Tell me about that.
HANK: You know, I was doing a series of meetings in the southern part of the United States and I was praying for one particular meeting. And all of a sudden I went into a vision, and this was back, I think around the 1995ish, right around when Bill Clinton, and I saw him actually open a door and walk into what looked like a hallway or a closet and a young woman with dark hair met him. And the Word of the Lord said, “What shall be done and is being done in the higher office of the land should release the spirit of perversion upon the nation.” And we’ve seen how that has been the case and, you know, obviously there is the Lord’s forgiveness for such a thing. But it did release a lot on the nation, you know, that we’re still dealing with today. So yeah, that was one prophecy that did happen.
SID: Did you see that he would win two times?
HANK: Yeah I did, yeah.
SID: I’ll tell you one of the biggest questions I have is there are so many prophets prophesying destruction. I’ve had them on my show. I love them. They’re wonderful men and women of God. And here’s you saying things are, this is the best time we’ve ever had on Planet Earth. How could so many are seeing gloom and doom?
HANK: Let me tell you about an experience of the Lord. This was just recently. I went before the Lord and he was grieved for two days. And I kept pressing God saying, God, “I want an answer. What are you grieved about?” And the Lord began to deal with me, and he said, “Hank,” he said, “too many are prophesying the obvious.” If I say to you, Sid, that there are going to be more droughts. There’s going to be more school shootings, unfortunately, you know, you would say, well wow. Well that’s obvious. We are in a season that’s evil, but God is invading it with his good. And so the Lord said, “There’s many that are prophesying according to the spirit of fear.” You know, fear is a very powerful spirit. It’s a spirit and it’s what the enemy is using to push back the Glory. You see, many are prophesying—
SID: Excuse me. That was too good to slip over so fast.
SID: You’re saying to me that the enemy is using a lot of this. They don’t even need prophets. You just watch the news.
SID: To push back the Glory. Why does this negativity push back the Glory?
HANK: Well let me give you an example. Because in Y2K, you remember Y2K.
SID: Of course. We all do.
HANK: I had a visitation from the Lord and there was a scroll given to me by an angel in the vision, and it said, “Tell my people that this is not going to be as they say. And tell the people that fear, the spirit, is trying to push back the Glory and the spirit of fear is trying to cross the new millennial line ahead of my church and is using the church.” Because see, Jesus said, “When two or more agree as touching any one thing upon this earth, it will be established.” When we got into agreement with the spirit of fear, watch this, we got into agreement with the spirit of fear, it unleashed the spirit of fear and a year later, our towers fell in New York City. And we still are battling that spirit that was allowed to come when we were storing up and looking at things by way of fear rather than does God have a plan for the new millennium. And so the Lord was saying, even with the prophets, you know, and he said we have to be wise because prophecy, and tapping into the prophetic, is like a radio. It’s frequencies. And Moses had to go above the dark cloud where God was to get a different perspective or a higher perspective. There is a realm, if we’re not careful, we as prophets can here the secrets of God. We can also hear the plans of the enemy and if we’re not careful we can prophesy the plans of the enemy as if it’s the Spirit of God. And that’s why sometimes there’s a confusion. So God is saying we need to come up higher.
SID: We have to tap into the right frequency.
SID: And I can see that because if you agree with the spirit, oh someone’s neck was just healed. If you agree with the Spirit of God, if two or more agree touching any one thing that will happen, what if you agree with the spirit of the god with a small “g” of this age? You see, I believe the media and unfortunately many prophets are tapping into the second heaven rather than higher up, the third heaven where God is. When we come back I want Hank to answer that question because he’s heard from God on this. We’ll be right back.
Sid: My guest on the telephone is Pastor Anita Hill. Anita is Pastor at Pleasant Valley Church in Thomaston, Georgia. Last week I sure hope you were listening because we had Pastor Henry Wright from the same church. And he was talking about how God is showing him that there are doorways and they are very specific for each specific disease. And when you can close this doorway you can stop that disease from its very roots. And as you know I have been searching, and I’m not going to be satisfied until I see what Jesus said in the New Testament He said “You’ll do the same works I’ve done and even greater.” Well, that is our minimum and I’m not satisfied until we hit that and as a matter of fact Jesus didn’t turn anyone down and Jesus healed everyone that came to Him. And I want nothing short of that and so I’ve been looking for the keys. And I believe that we’re on to a key that I’m so excited about. And I have a woman on the phone Anita Hill who is also a Pastor at Pleasant Valley Church in Thomaston, Georgia. She is a nurse and a teacher and her job there is identified the roots of diseases. Anita you’ve identified the roots of something like 500 diseases.
Anita: Well, collectively we have led by the basic teaching from the word that Pastor Henry Wright has set the stage for the roots of many diseases and then we have extrapolated from that and recognized other illnesses that have a commonality with some of the diseases that he already recognized.
Sid: Now let’s just kind of recap, for the Mishpochah, because you’re testimony is in the book we’re offering this week called “The More Excellent Way.” The book identifies at least 17 diseases that you had. You were a nice atheist stuck in a body, the New Age couldn’t help you, nothing could help you. You had environmental illnesses to the point where all of your hair fell out and you couldn’t wear clothing. You could only, for a time, eat beets, you were on oxygen for 11 years, you had a rare kidney disease, hypothyroidism, you had organic brain syndrome, you had multiple chemical sensitivity, just cervical and lumbar osteoarthritis. You had kidney problems, you had psychiatric diseases, you had tendonitis, bursitis, bladder infection, it goes on and on. You were legally blind in both eyes, your mental problems were so bad that you spent many years in a mental institution, you were catatonic at times. You had such a horrible background being raised and so you’re in one of these let’s call it a safe house because of the environmental problems that you had. You’re with a nice Jewish girlfriend roommate and she’s in law school graduate from Harvard University but she has this bad disease it’s environmental. And all of a sudden she’s a believer in Jesus and she get’s healed. What affect did this have on you because you tried New Age and it didn’t help?
Anita: Right and I would like to mention that I was legally blind without my glasses and now I can pass the Georgia test without my glasses and my doctor says “That that is a real miracle,” the eye doctor. But when she called she wanted to get some things out of storage at my house and immediately hearing her voice I knew something was different. And she wasn’t going to tell me because so many people had given her a bad time time about maybe even being a Christian let alone being a healed by God. So she was holding back but she finally told me and immediately when she told me her story about her healing and that she had accepted Jesus Christ as her Savior I knew I wanted to know this Living God. And I wasn’t as sure about getting healed of all of my diseases, but I had known this God earlier in my life and I wanted to reconnect out of that. And I immediately called a friend of mine who was my astrologer and I did pendulum readings for her.
Sid: Oi vey!
Anita: And she began weeping and I said “Why are you weeping you’re not a Christian because I’m going to have to give up my guru.” Immediately it was like she knew.
Sid: You know it reminds me almost of my Jewish mother and that is that even before she was a believer she was going around witnessing to people. It’s…anyway you get this Henry Wright on the telephone what does he say to you?
Anita: Well, I get in touch with his ministry and one of his ministers started teaching me the word over the phone because I was in no position to go all of the way from ministry was in Florida at the time and I was in San Francisco on oxygen for 11 years in a foil-lined room. And barely able to wear any clothing, I finally could wear some silk and linen and it’s a bit of a stretch when you’re paying $200 for your sheets but I…
Sid: Because any other type of sheet you would be allergic to.
Anita: I could only do linen and silk. And I did not have a bed to sleep in for 11 years I slept on a metal frame that was only about 24 inches wide.
Sid: Why didn’t you sleep on a bed?
Anita: Because I couldn’t tolerate mattresses and all of the chemicals that would be in mattresses.
Sid: Anita you must really know what it really is to suffer you must have tremendous compassion for people that are suffering.
Anita: I do. One of the ways that I am effective in ministry is that people say “I know you know the kind of thing I’ve gone through.” And I always tell them “I can’t know exactly how they feel but I know what it’s like to suffer.” But I also know what it’s like to be victorious in Christ because God heals me.
Sid: And for those that are just tuning in for the first time this is nothing compared to all she’s been healed of but she’s 68 years young and most people when they see her they think she’s in her 40’s. And you’re almost a sign and a wonder just by your appearance.
Anita: Right when I first came to the ministry I had to have people hold me up on both sides because I was so allergic to grass and trees or if I smelled car exhaust on the street I would fall. I would fall several times a day and even in my home let alone in the streets and they would try to take me out for a walk when I came to the ministry and would assist me like this. Within a week I was jogging down that same street. And since I’ve been healed even though I’ve previously had osteoarthritis in my spine I was able to go to Switzerland and climb mountain trails and that was a real victory.
Sid: What about your kidneys?
Anita: Well I had been on artificial kidney machine because I took 60 sleeping pills and was in a coma for a month and my kidneys shut down. And from being on the artificial kidney machine I developed a rare kidney disorder and could not hold on to calcium or potassium. And had to carry bottles of it around with me because I’d start having heart attack symptoms and this went on for 11 years and God also healed that.
Sid: Now when you went into the ministry could you eat normal food?
Anita: No, I came to the ministry and I told them that they would have to get some organic beets for me. I had a…
Sid: I mean that’s quite an appetite I mean beets that’s the only thing that you could eat?
Anita: Without severe reactions at one point I…
Sid: Weren’t you sick of beets?
Anita: Yes I was, but at least they didn’t make me critically ill. I would get heart attack systems if I ate some foods like beef and so forth. So I had to take an injection for every food that I ate, they neutralized me at the hospital in Texas for even lettuce would put me out for days with pain in my joints and depression and whatever. So after while I could no longer afford to take the shots and I also started reacting to them it was becoming more sensitive. So it was like playing Russian roulette to eat anything. I did eat some foods even though they made me very sick because I wanted to stay alive. But at the point where I got that phone call from my friend I had really decided to turn my face to wall and die and let myself starve and not take water anymore. I couldn’t even drink water without severe reaction and had to have a glass distiller in order to process my water.
Sid: So you’re saying if God hadn’t interceded in your life you would have probably taken you like if you hadn’t died naturally at that point.
Anita: Right at that point I couldn’t take it any more I had had 56 years of suffering from the time I was born. My first suicide attempt was at the age of 8. And throughout my life I made many attempts on my life because I felt I just didn’t belong in this world.
Sid: After a few weeks what was your eating like when you went to Henry Wrights.
Anita: Guess what, I went to after one week I went to a Jewish deli that had a gas leak and had a pastrami sandwich and I also had cheesecake.
Sid: If you hadn’t been healed what affect would that had had on you?
Anita: Well one I wouldn’t have gotten in the door with the gas leak I would have collapsed at the door probably started having heart attack symptoms. If I drank the milk I probably would have become suicidal you know with the cheesecake with the milk in it. And with the beef I would have become very disoriented. I guess that’s what pastramis from. And the bread with wheat I would have been totally out of my mind with reaction.
Sid: Listen, we’re out of time. The reason we’re interviewing her Mishpochah and I’m saying there’s nothing going on in your life to compare like this. If God could heal Anita He can heal you if God wanted to heal Anita He wants to heal you.
Sid: Now several weeks ago I gave you a very fast update on what happened in Israel. But there was so much that happened that, it’s so significant prophetically that I felt I’d take this whole week and tell you a bit about my adventure in the land of Israel. It started out with my sister and brother-in-law emailing me and saying “Sid I feel it’s time for you to come to the land and we can set up some evangelistic meetings for you.” I felt “Well, that sounds good.” We had them set up and there were some special things they were doing to get a lot of unsaved people there. See my sister and brother-in-law made Aliyah about a year and a half ago. And they’re in their 60’s. And God gave my sister a dream and they had it made; their retired their family is doing well they have a wonderful congregation, and everything was going wonderful for them. And they had no desire to go Israel in the midst of the intifada, the war but my sister had a dream in which God made it very clear that they were called the land of Israel. And so they cut their ties and they went and imagine over 60 their learning Hebrew. You know what even more unbelievable they love it, they absolutely love it. You know when you’re in the center of God’s will it doesn’t matter that an intifada’s going on, it doesn’t matter what happens, all that counts is to be in the center of God’s will. And He says “I’ll keep you in perfect peace if you’ll keep your eyes on Me.”
I talked to my sister and brother-in-law “Do you have any fear, do you have any concerns about walking down the center of the street there’s suicide bombers and all of these things going on.” And you know when you’re in the land of Israel it’s not like the United States you see people all over with guns at their side. I mean it’s just… when you go into a restaurant and they frisk you; most Americans have never lived under this type of atmosphere and I can tell you that they’re in such peace.
So anyway they invited me to come to Israel and then I had a childhood disease which caused a deteriorated hipbone and the prognosis was “Someday you’ll need surgery.” We didn’t know when the someday was but of course I was believing God for a new hip from the parts room in heaven. I really believe that God does these things and will do these things after all He says “Is anything impossible for Me.” But the pain got unbearable and I decided it hasn’t manifested yet I’m going to have the surgery. So I didn’t go to Israel. And then I decided that I would go again the dates worked out for me to be there about a week before Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year the Feast of Trumpets. And I talked to a friend of mine that’s a prophet his name is Bob Jones and I told him I was going to Israel I’d appreciate prayer for me while I’m there. And he said “Will you be there over Rosh Hashanah?” And I said “No, I’m leaving the land about a week before.” And he said “Oh, too bad God is showing me He’s going to pour out His Spirit on Israel in a very sovereign way starting in Rosh Hashanah.” And he said “I’m not prophesying you’re supposed to be there but it’s just too bad that you’re not going to.” I mean that’s like waving a red flag in front of a bull. (Laughing) I mean “If You’re going to pour out Your Spirit God I want to be where you pour It out.” So I decided I’d do a fleece I wrote am email to Pat Robertson and I’m going to be in Israel and I could extend my trip a few days if you would like to do a live update from Jerusalem on Rosh Hashanah. And low and behold got a call back almost immediately and they said “Yes.” So I had to be in Israel an extra week, that’s 2 weeks.
So I really felt that God had something special for me there and I’ll tell you if nothing else, if nothing else to see what God is doing in that land the way it builds your faith to see all of these ancient promises that have come true. “As long as there’s a sun and moon and stars they’ll be a physical Jew on the face of this earth.” That from the 4 corners of the earth God will suddenly cause Israel to become a nation in a day.” That’s what it says in Isaiah “A nation will be formed in a day and the Jewish people will be preserved, will be restored to that land.” And to just go there and see that is I mean such a boost in ones faith. And so one of the things that happened while I was there is I called a friend of mine that’s a close friend of Derrick Prince. Now Derrick Prince wrote… I interviewed him a number of times, he wrote a forward in one of my books. And as far as I’m concerned he’s one of the greatest Bible scholars. So I talked to this friend and this friend said… the friend’s name was Lance Lambert, and Lance said “Well, Derrick’s in the hospital and he’s not doing very well.” And then he hung up and the next day he was promoted; he went on to be with the Father in heaven. I got a hold of a newsletter, this was the last newsletter that Derrick Prince sent out just before he was promoted. And I’ve got to read this to you this is what he says:
Over the past 3 years God has been telling me again and again that He has planted me here in Israel; He has promised me that I will abide where He has planed me the result will be abundant fruit.
And I have to interject that’s what I saw on this trip abundant fruit. Then let me read another part of this newsletter. These were like his last words before he died:
Over the past several years I’ve been exercised in my mind over Romans 1:16. And Romans 1:16 says “I’m not ashamed of the gospel of Messiah for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone who believes. To the Jew first, and also for the Greek
Then he goes on to say:
Some Christians offer only an historical interpretation of these words. Suggesting that they mean that the gospel was first presented to the Jews then later to the Gentiles, but that is not what Paul actually says. He says that the gospel still is for the Jews first, then for the Greek. It describes not merely a fact of history, but also a permanent order which God has ordained for the dissemination of the gospel. It is significant that Paul himself, who was the apostle of the uncircumcision, that is the Gentiles, regularly began his ministry in any city by approaching the Jewish community. I believe that we should still follow the same order in the presentation of the gospel today. I feel that we please God by reserving a special place for the ministry of the gospel to the Jewish people especially in their land.
Wow! This is what I’d been proclaiming for years. It’s almost like from heaven because he’s in heaven right now and I get this newsletter and he’s saying what the Spirit of God has been showing me for years. That, when we go to the Jew first it opens up because when you’re doing what God says to do you can’t miss. When you go to the Jew first it is God’s eternal law of evangelism. It opens up a supernatural door to reach all people. When you go to all people you don’t take advantage of that supernatural door. It’s like in Genesis 12:3 God says “I God will bless those who bless the Jewish people, and I will curse those who curse them.” So when you reach out to the Jew first with evangelism it’s like planting a seed. When you plant that seed it opens the door to reach all people, it’s so simple you need help to get confused.
So when I read that it got me so excited, then something else, I was actually at his funeral in Jerusalem. When I was there they mentioned his last prophetic word to the church. He was asked the question “What do you see as far as where we are right now?” This is what he said just days before he was promoted to heaven. He said 2 things, he didn’t have to think it just came right out of his mouth.
- Restoring Israel – this is what God is doing. Number 1 restoring Israel.
- Judging the nations – that’s so articulate and so correct.
You know the Feast of Trumpets, and that’s what I was in Israel for, or Rosh Hashanah, you blow the shofar. The shofar represents many things: Announcing royalty – when you hear that shofar blast the king is ready to come. I believe that what is about ready to happen in Israel today. It is not an accident that they have had an unusually high rain fall this year, almost record amounts of rain. Well rain is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. I believe it’s showing us there’s an outpouring of God’s Spirit, and that prophecy I heard by Bob Jones I believe that started on Rosh Hashanah, the King is about ready to come.
The second thing the shofar does is a warning. It tells you that there’s danger on the horizon. I have to tell when I was in Israel, and it was very early in the morning and I was just waking up, I had as close to an audible voice as I’ve ever heard in my life and the voice said “Economic judgment.” Now that’s all this voice said and I believe it was God. My interpretation was economic judgment on the United States for coming against Israel.
Do you remember John McTernan who I interviewed on Messianic Vision? He said that every time the United States of America has come against Israel they’ve had a warning judgment of some natural disaster or catastrophe.
Sid: I have a friend on the telephone Dr. Mark Gabriel. I’m speaking to him somewhere in Florida. That is not his real name because previously he was a professor of Islamic history at the most prestigious Islamic university in the world. We found out on yesterday’s broadcast he began to question the contradictions that he saw in the Quran. The Secret Police got ahold of him, he wasn’t a believer in Jesus he just questioned all of these contradictions that were there. They put him in a prison for 3 days without food and water, they whipped him, he was supernaturally protected. He cried out to God he didn’t even know who God was but he said “God help me.” They put a vicious dog in the same cell with him that was very hungry and the dog started licking him rather than killing him. They put in water with rats swimming up to his head and these rats were hungry and they didn’t harm him either. He was wondering “Who’s this God that’s protecting me?” So time went on… you went to a pharmacy because you had… what did you have a bad headache?
Mark: I had one… I lived for 1 year without faith because I’m already I lost my faith in Islam. I spent a whole year questioning myself searching for the true God who can be. I ask myself its can be the God of Hinduism?” I said “No no no God can’t be a cow. He must be more greater than that.”
Sid: So it wasn’t a God of Hinduism, okay.
Mark: So I just come really during that year I had a terrible headache because I never stopped asking myself, searching, and questioning you see about the true God who can be. The One who delivered me from the prison, the One He delivered me from the hand of the persecutors you see. One day I went to the doctor pharmacy, I was always going to this pharmacy to get this type of headache tablet. So when I went to there one day and the doctor pharmacy and she know me, she know my family, and she was really wondering what’s really going on in my life. She was worried I was going to be addicted for these tablets. She told me “What’s going on in your life? Why you keep taking these tablets all the time? I am worried about you.” I told her I don’t know just because I can’t sleep every night I can’t sleep. She asked me “What’s going on?” So I told her “I’m searching for my God. I searched, I don’t know He is the God of Judaism, the God of Christianity, the god of Islam I do know him exactly. I know his story exactly, but the God Judaism, the God of Hinduism I don’t know who is the true God can be.” She just smiled and she told me “Okay I’m going to give you these tablets like always, but I’m going to give you this book this is my Bible. Take and before you take your tablets tonight open it and try to read something and see how you’re going to feel. If you will feel nothing just close it and go ahead and take your tablets.” So I take the Bible from her, I take the tablets also. I went to my home and I sit in my room and I start to read the Bible before I take the tablets and find myself I start to read in Matthew chapter 5 the sermon of the mountain. I was shocked when I start to read and see what the Lord Jesus Christ telling His disciples and the crowd was sitting around Him. My brain automatically start to bring the Quranic teaching about Jesus. During my reading of the sermon of the mountain, I felt that the Lord Himself He did this appointment with me and came tonight to reach out to my heart and to introduce Himself to me and to give me the true picture about Him who is Jesus. So I was shocked by His teaching “Love your enemies.” I love my enemies how come? How come Islam does not teach me in all my life to love my enemy? Islam does teach “Eye by eye, and a tooth by tooth.” Islam does not teach me to love my enemy. So “Bless who curse you.” I find the word afterward in the sermon of the mountain came as a clear message to present to me the true picture about the heavenly God, about the heart of God towards His creation His people. I did discover that yes this is it the true God.
Sid: Now you told people about this and you were kicked out of the university, you were kicked out of the mosque, and as a matter of fact 2 men were sent to kill you. What happened?
Mark: One day I was just walking back to my home and 2 guys they came and because they wasn’t understanding and they was believed I was kicked from the mosque, and I was kicked from the university. They was thinking I am converted from Islam… particularly with Muslims they see some person leave Islam, or they are thinking that he became a Christian. So this is why they came and they tried to end my life. Why? Because they want to please God because the Islamic law says “The judgment of the apostasy, the person who’s going to leave Islam the judgment is for him must be killed.” The person who’s going to kill me he’s going to honor Allah for killing me. Let’s say you’re going to see in my book when my father he came and discovered my conversion and he came to kill me himself, my father, my own father, I am his blood and flesh, but he want to honor Allah in his life. The desire of Allah for him is more than his son.
Sid: How did you survive with these 2 men they stabbed you why weren’t you killed?
Mark: They stabbed me when they saw the blood comes from everywhere in my body I fainted and I fell on the floor and they think I was finished. There was lots of cowards and they ran away quickly, they do not want to wait more so they can catch by the police or something like that. They ran away and the police they came and they take me from the ground and they called the hospital car and they take me to the hospital.
Sid: When your father came to kill you with a gun what happened?
Mark: I was standing outside my house, my father he was talking to me and he find out that there is a chain around my neck. This chain carries the cross but the cross it was covered by my t-shirt. I received that cross from a Christian guy and I meet with him in South Africa when my father sent me to South Africa for a business trip for his business. My father came and asked me “You are the Imam, you are… How come you put a chain around your neck?” According to the Islamic and Arabic culture if a man puts a chain around his neck this is very bad.
Sid: The chain with the cross?
Mark: But he didn’t see the cross.
Sid: Oh, just the chain was upsetting.
Mark: Yeah I don’t know who moved my time to tell him “No my father this is not a chain, this is a cross.” I took the cross and I showed him “Now I believe in Jesus Christ He is my Lord and my Savior.” When I told him this he just fainted on the floor, he’s on the ground. When he fainted on the ground I discovered, I understand that my father that he will end my life. He will not leave me to go away, so I ran away from him to my sister’s house; I ran from him. My brother’s and some people from our neighborhood they came and helped him and when he stand up he take his handgun and he just looked for me and he find me just far away from him and he starts shooting towards me. The Lord just delivered me from his bullets. I ran to my sister’s house and from there I start to commit my situation to the Lord in my prayer and ask the Lord to show me where I’m going to that evening, and how I’m going to live in this country.
Sid: We’ll let them read the full story in the book, but Mark I want to now fast forward this is now 10 years later. I must understand what is the goal of Islam in reference to the United States of America?
Mark: The goal of Islam before September 11 maybe 20 or 50 years ago was perpetrated by the Islamic Mission Activity to reach out to America and to convert the American to Islam. Ultimately they will see America will become an Islamic country. The same way they did in England.
Sid: You know… well tell me how did they do it in England that might interesting?
Mark: In England they did also they did that through the Muslim Mission Activity. Building mosques, building Muslim schools, Muslim cemeteries…
Sid: I see all over America there are mosques coming up.
Mark: It is more than 200 mosques in the city of London itself.
Sid: In your book you talk about there is 3 stages of Jihad, or a holy war. So what are those 3 stages?
Mark: The 3 stages it was presented by the life of Mohammed himself. This is the example for the Muslims and the Muslim movement around the world today. The first stage is the Weaker Time or the Weaker Stage. Weaker stage means the time when Mohammed was living in Mecca for 12 years. He has no power, he has not many people living around him, he has no ability to fight his enemies or the people that stand against him. So this is the Weaker Stage, and the Muslim he must require by the Quran and the Hadith he must have patience and must prepare himself for the second stage.
Sid: Now in that weakened stage would Muslims obey the law in the land if they’re just a small minority?
Mark: Yes they can do that yes.
Sid: The goal then is to increase their numbers I would assume.
Mark: To increase their numbers and start to prepare themselves for establishing a power.
Sid: Okay what is the second…
Mark: The second stage.
Sid: Tell me… explain the second stage.
Mark: The second stage is when Muslims they going to settle somewhere and they’re going to increase their number and they’re going to use their mission activity reaching out to people…
Sid: I’m sorry we’re out of time.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Robert Inguanzo I’m speaking to him at his home in Lincoln Park, New Jersey. He got hit with AIDS he had such an amazing miracle that happened because he was in a prayer meeting and God gave him a vision. In this vision he saw the condition of the church and what did the Lord show you?
Robert: Well he showed me it’s like I could see inside of the people; it’s like I could see what they were feeling and I could see that they were not really Christians like God wanted Christians to be. I remember the Holy Spirit would speak to me as I was looking at all of this and He told me “Robert I want the Christians to go into the depth of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ isn’t like just a story that you read it’s something… Jesus Christ is the person, He’s a real person He’s a loving God He wants us to be intimate with Him. He wants us to be able to talk to Him, He wants to prepare us to hear His voice, He wants intimacy with His church and that’s what the church isn’t going through right now. The church needs a renewal, it needs a restoration.” As I was seeing all of this I remember I’m crying and crying and crying and I kept feeling that pain in my chest and it was the same pain that Jesus was feeling. And Sid it was really such a strong pain and I remember after that I had such a desire to reach out to the Christians and say “Listen Jesus is real and there’s much more.” I remember that the Holy Ghost said “Robert there’s so much more that God has to offer there’s so much more that He has for His church.” And I remember that He said “Christians their goal was always to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and speak and tongues and all of this.” And He said that “A lot of times that people would stop there and he would show me that being baptized with Holy Spirit was only the beginning that was like the open door to the supernatural to a new level, to a new dimension.
Sid: What is the next step you would advise people to take that are born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking in unknown tongues what is the next step?
Robert: Well what we need as Christians is to have a hunger ask God for a hunger for Him.
Sid: So that’s the next step.
Sid: Pray God give me a hunger for you beyond what I have? Now what about your AIDS? You didn’t just have HIV you had full blown AIDS not only was it full blown AIDS you had a type of AIDS that’s called multi-generation AIDS. Which means that if they gave you medicine it would mutate to the point that where (One month) even if the medicine helped it wouldn’t help there was absolutely no hope for you; what about the AIDS? What is your condition today and where did you come from?
Robert: Well Sid my condition is that my immune system was 99% gone and thank God that after 4½ years it’s gone up up and up and it’s like I always say “God heals in so many different says.”
Sid: Okay there’s something called the T-Cell count which gives us an indication of your immune system. How low did your T-Cell get?
Robert: My T-Cell T4 is the same thing; my immune system went down to 2 just 2 T-4; 2-T-Cells.
Sid: That sounds like someone that’s almost dead; well you were told that you only had 4 months to live.
Robert: I not only have 4 months to live but it was nothing they could do at all; I remember I would get all of these headaches and I would get all of these diseases and I would go to the hospital and they would send you home because they said “Robert you’re on every kind of medication and there’s nothing else that we can do for you.” And Sid that would be like so depressing when you hear something like that and you have a family.
Sid: Okay what is your T-Count today? It was 2 what is it today?
Robert: It’s over 800.
Sid: Now this was a gradual healing how long did it take?
Robert: It took like I said like 4½ years to get up to 800.
Sid: And what about the AIDS virus itself, I mean the T-count has to do with the immune system what about the AIDS virus what did the tests show?
Robert: The tests show that there is no AIDS virus in my blood at all and that’s one of the greatest miracles I have paper work proving what I’m saying that it’s true. A lot of people might not understand exactly what it is but I don’t base myself only on the paperwork of the doctors even when my immune system was low I remember I would be reading scriptures like Isaiah 53 that would say “By His stripes I was healed.” And that’s the paperwork I really based my life on is the scriptures, is the word of God. I would take God’s for His word more than what the doctors were telling me because the doctors were only telling me bad news but then I would read the Bible and I would see something completely different. And all I had to do was just believe, just believe that the word of God is actually the word of God; it’s inspired by God. Yes it was written by man but it’s inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Sid: Give me a scripture that you might have meditated on and tell me what you did and tell me what the scripture said, pick one.
Robert: Okay well my favorite scriptures were Isaiah 53 “By His stripes were healed” and the lady with issue of blood.
Sid: Tell me about the lady with the issue of blood.
Robert: The lady with the issue, I compare myself so much to her Sid here was a lady she had gone to so many different doctors there was so much for so many years for 12 years. I can imagine this lady was in the same condition that I was in a way because she had a lot of money. Obviously if you go to a doctor 12 years for different doctors you know that she must have had a lot of money. After the 12 years she had spent everything that she had which was exactly what happened to me I had gone to so many different doctors there was nothing else I could do. But this lady with the issue of blood after she had spent everything, after she had done everything she could somebody told her about Jesus because the Bible says that she heard about Jesus so she heard about Jesus. So obviously she was told about Jesus. When she heard about Jesus it happened just like me when I heard that Jesus really, really did heal it was like a spark inside of me. And this lady with the issue of blood when she heard about Jesus she had to go and see Jesus and touch Jesus but she had a great problem that she wasn’t allowed by the law of Moses to be in crowds because of her condition she would be stoned to death if they would find her. But she didn’t care she was desperate and that’s exactly how I was I was desperate. And this lady she pushed herself through the crowd and just touched the hem of Jesus of Jesus’ garment. And if you read the scriptures carefully you will see that she kept repeating to herself, that’s how the original text explains it the original text explains it as she’s pushing through. The crowd she kept saying “If I only touch the hem of His garment. And when she touched the hem of His garment it was a touch of faith, it was a touch of faith so much so that Jesus Himself felt an anointing come out of Him. If you keep reading you’ll see how He turned around and was looking for her and again if you look into the original you’ll see when He was looking for her she was actually hiding behind the people so that Jesus wouldn’t know who she was or what happened she was hiding it wasn’t just that He didn’t see her he didn’t see her because she was hiding that’s how the original explains it. And that’s exactly what happened to me I reached out when there was no other hope and when I got to touch the hem of Jesus’ garment that ‘s when I received the healing. Even though everything else all the other diseases disappeared instantly the AIDS, it took a long time it took almost 4½ years to where it is now.
Sid: Now today you have so much faith your family has so much faith having seen all of these miracles that occurred in your life you’re praying for people that are being healed. I want you to tell me about 1 person describe 1 person that had incurable cancer that was healed that you prayed for.
Robert: Well there is so many but I know that there’s this one there’s this one lady she was already completely bald and I mean it was so sad looking at her and I just first of all I gave her my testimony how it was because I know that everything has to do with believing and having faith in God’s word. So I would tell her how it happened with me and how… what the doctors had said and everything and I would just pray for her and you know little by little she started getting stronger and stronger. There’s another case of another person that was going to die with pancreatic cancer and that person got stronger and stronger and stronger.
Sid: Was she cured?
Robert: Yes, yes, yes okay that’s what I want to hear….
Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah, her name is Elisabeth Syre she’s from South Africa. I’ve caught up with her where she’s speaking in Leesburg, Virginia. She moves in extraordinary prophecy and words of knowledge. The thing that intrigues me so much about you Elisabeth is that you were raised in Holland during the holocaust. Your father was one of these people that loved the Jewish people and wanted to help them, but that was pretty life threatening to the rest of your family. What happened to your family?
Elisabeth: My family at that time lived in Holland and my family was not aware of my father’s underground movement for the Jewish people. He was busy in getting 23 little children saved in the city of Hengelo, Holland. He was doing that because he was working in the town hall and he had all the names on file. He let many names disappear from the files so that they couldn’t find any Jewish names the moment the Germans occupied the town hall. Then he found the homes of these children and actually made sure that they were not being stolen by the Germans so to say, but they were in state homes. He brought them one by one into Christian homes.
Sid: Now was your father’s life ever threatened? Was he ever captured by the Nazis?
Elisabeth: Yes he was captured by the Nazis. In his office he was the personal manager in his office with his assistant as they took over all the offices and all the government buildings. They took him and brought him into the death train. Every Friday the death train was leaving the station…
Sid: Now why was it called the death train?
Elisabeth: Because people never came back.
Elisabeth: They never came back. They were put onto the train and people that had dark hair and that had dark eyes… they took people from the street and said you “You look Jewish you have to go into the train.” So it was on the Friday we were not allowed to walk outside because especially on Friday they were picking up people at random and brought them into that train.
Sid: Now where was the train heading?
Elisabeth: The train was heading I believe to Dachau in Germany.
Sid: That was one of the worst of Hitler’s concentration camps.
Sid: So… Your father had a one way ticket to death. They arrested him and put him on the train?
Elisabeth: They put him on the train, the train was packed with people…
Sid: But he wasn’t Jewish, why did they do that?
Elisabeth: He had a Jewish name and my mother had a Jewish name. They did it because he had an influential position and all people in this position in Holland they took them first, and they took the Jewish people as well. They were just trying to overtake every situation in Holland.
Sid: So what happened to your dad?
Elisabeth: After he was in train he spoke to his assistant and said “Well I don’t know what you’re going to do but I’m going to leave this train. I hear the soldiers are fastening the windows and we are in one of the last carriers. So when they are fastening the windows this is the time to jump on the other side out of the window. I’ll help you. We’ll try to escape just come with me I’ll help you too.” The assistant stayed in the train and he died and he never came back, but my father jumped out of the train and did hide himself…
Sid: Now I would think that would be pretty life threatening to jump out of a moving train?
Elisabeth: It wasn’t moving it was stationary…
Elisabeth: …for a couple of hours till they had enough people to take Dachau.
Sid: How come no one saw him when he jumped out?
Elisabeth: Because he was sitting in the corner and his carrier was in the back… was one of the last carriers and it was very dark. It came became more gradually darker and darker and there was no light in the station. So in that particular carrier he just jumped out and out of the window and stayed under the wheels of the train. Just before 12:00 you know the heels of the soldiers clicked past the window again but they didn’t see him under the train. The train drove off and my father was still on the rails.
Sid: There had to be a destiny for his life and for your life for that matter. So your father escaped and then what happened?
Elisabeth: When he escaped he actually in the middle of the night you are not allowed to walk on the street before 7:00 in the morning. He actually walked through all the little backyards of these little towns, town of Hengelo. Then he crossed the street to the house where we lived in the city. Then he actually climbed onto the balcony. We had a double-story house and the light in the room of my mother was still on. She was praying with the Bible open and had cried herself to sleep because dad hadn’t come home. The window… the curtain was slightly opened, he knocked on the window and said “Quickly open the door.” At that point my mother opened the door and he said to her “I’ve just been… I’m here but we have to leave they will look for me everywhere; we have to go into hiding.” Then we all packed our clothes and dad said “Well let’s take all our belongings and everything that’s important. Just go immediately. I’ll walk in front of you.” So my brother and my sister at the time because I was a baby in the prim, my mother pushed a prim with all the belongings, I was buried under the belongings. My father walked a 100 meters ahead of us and at every corner he waited if we would see him then he would turn left, right, left, right through the little town of Hengelo till we came onto the main artery road to another city and he walked and walked and walked. Then he found this little farm, we call it a small holding in English, it’s a small farm. He knew the owner of this farmer, he was a Baptist believer. He said “Brother will you take us in our lives are in danger.” This man was open arms received us and put us up for a couple of years in his little farm. We had hardly anything to eat because everything was so… at least on the farm there was something growing there. We had something but I remember as a baby they couldn’t feed me but we were living… I was living under the ground for a couple of months, maybe for a year I don’t know how long.
Sid: So Elisabeth how did you eventually get out of this predicament?
Elisabeth: In 1945 I was a toddler at that time. The American soldiers came to Holland to rescue Holland from Germany. My father was overwhelmed with joy because he had made it through the war and we went back to our old house in the city. Soldiers came to our house, the believing soldiers and we celebrated many many evenings in song and in singing hymns together. All of my family were very very musical so there was always food for everyone. For the first time in my life after all these years of depreciation we actually got real butter and I remember the taste of real butter. Then they put me onto a table and it had long flats, little flats on the side. They were teaching me the song “You are My Sunshine My Only Sunshine,” I still remember it.
Sid: Okay well let’s jump forward now. You’re in England, you’re being educated there…
Sid: …but you weren’t really a believer in Jesus. I mean coming from such a Godly heritage, how come you weren’t?
Elisabeth: Well I was a nominal believer. I was a duty believer, I believed when that when you go to church that everything is okay. I went regularly to church with my father and with my family, but I didn’t really here the gospel in the type of congregation that I went. When I came to England I realized that “Wow! Is it really true that Jesus is the Messiah, or Yeshua is the Messiah?” I asked Him and so I got involved with a whole group of students, they had quiet times. They talked to Him as if He really was in the room and I was very impressed by that. Then the one day I said “Lord if you’re really alive show me.” When I went home to my little apartment on Bakers Street that I was sharing with some students. You know in the door I the saw the whole like a flash of lightning, I saw the whole outline of Yeshua He was standing in that door with His hands outstretched and I saw the nail prints in His hands. I was just so touched it was as if the Lord said “You see I’m really alive. You see I’m really alive.” By that point I said “Lord I now know that you are Yeshua that you are the Lord of lords and the King of kings, and I trust you.” Then I became freer and freer and I started to talk to the Lord. In the quiet time I started to grow, read books, go to the Bible studies and I started to grow and grow, and I even went to Bible school. So I grew all the time in the Spirit, but I then I realized that you can’t just be a nice Christian out of duty you have to give your heart to the Lord. When Corrie Ten Boom came back into our life after she came back from the concentration camp, do you know she told me all about the Holy Spirit. She said it is the second battery in your life. The first battery is salvation, the second battery is empowering with the Holy Spirit.
Sid: Alright I want to find out about what happened when she laid hands on you and prayed, but we’re out of time today.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone I’m speaking to him at his home in Key Largo, Florida is RT Kendall. RT is the former Senior Minister of West Chapel in London, England. He is a PhD graduate of Oxford University. And He has a new book that’s shaking a lot of people up and I believe that if there’s every been a time to get this area right in your life is just before what I believe is the greatest outpouring of God’s Spirit in the history of planet earth, don’t miss out on your destiny. The name of the book “Total Forgiveness” subtitle “When Everything in You Wants to Hold a Grudge Point a Finger and Remember the Pain God Wants You to Lay it All Aside.” RT on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about what is total forgiveness, would you pick up there where we left off?
RT: Well it doesn’t mean closing our eyes to those that will continue to harm others Sid. Total forgive is when you pray for them and you want them to be blessed but the proof that you have total forgiven begins with a refusal to tell what they did. Take for example Joseph here was a man who was betrayed by his brothers, sold to Ishmaelites and then that was really Plan B they were going to kill him. Well it wasn’t a very nice thing that they did and Joseph had to forgive them. Now when those brothers sold Joseph to the Ismaelites they never thought they’d see him again. Little did they know that 22 years later when they go to Egypt they have to face the Prime Minister of Egypt that is none other than their brother Joseph they don’t know it at first but later they find out that it’s a new Joseph. Joseph had longed for the day that he could look at those brothers and say “Gotcha!” But now he has them before him and instead of saying “Gotcha” he’s a new man, he’s a changed man. And the first thing he does Sid is to say “Everybody out of the room.” Now why did he have everybody leave the room? It’s because he’s going to persuade his brothers to get their father Jacob to come and live in Egypt in the land of Goshen. The reason he had everybody leave the room except his brothers is so that nobody in Egypt would ever know what they did to him. Joseph wants his brothers to come and live in Egypt and he wanted the Egyptians to admire his brothers. Joseph knew that he himself was a hero he wanted his brothers to be heroes and so he makes sure that nobody in Egypt would ever find out because he knows that if they find out in Egypt what they did you know they’re going to hate those brothers and Joseph doesn’t want his brothers to be hated.
Sid: If Joseph hadn’t at some point along the way forgiven his brothers do you think he would have rose to the royalty he did?
RT: Very good point Sid. Don’t believe he would have it’s my view that God just waited till Joseph totally forgave before he could be trusted with such a lofty position.
Sid: And Mishpochah did you get that point. Maybe you you’ve been saying “God I feel like I’ve been on a treadmill how come you’re not moving me up? How come you’re not promoting me, how come the gifts are not flowing the way you promised me that they’re going to flow and maybe…
RT: You are exactly right.
Sid: And maybe God’s waiting on you.
RT: Do you remember the dreams Joseph had about his brothers? Yeah he wasn’t very wise to tell those dreams he said “You know I had this dream “Moon, eleven stars were bowing down to me.” Now there wasn’t anything wrong with Joseph’s gift because it was functioning he had a definite prophetic gift when it came to dreams. But there was a lot wrong with Joseph and Joseph always knew that one day those brothers were going to come to him. But what he didn’t know is that God wasn’t going to let it happen until Joseph was right in his heart towards them. And I think there are a lot of people Sid that have been given call it prophetic words, words of knowledge, promise maybe the Lord Himself has promised someone one day I’m going to use you.” And they keep asking Him “How long, how long, how long?
Sid: And God’s saying the same thing “How long, how long, how long are you going to wait to walk in un-forgiveness? (Laughing.)
RT: That’s exactly the point, that’s exactly the point. So Joseph could not be trusted with such authority and power if he were still bitter. And so when God doesn’t exalt us as soon as we would like it’s at least that God’s doing us a favor because we couldn’t be trusted with that kind of power.
Sid: You know many times I’ve said…I’ve even said this publically when I first started in ministry had I had the platform I have right now I believe that I would have fallen big time.
RT: Hm hm exactly.
Sid: So God’s got a lot of wisdom there (Laughing.)
RT: Well He was doing Joseph an enormous favor and He’s done me a favor by well my predecessor at Westminster Chapel was a man by the name of Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones. And he used to say to me “The worst thing that can happen to a man is to succeed before he’s ready.” And so that the principals here once Joseph had totally forgiven those brothers “God says Joseph I think now you’re ready,” and that’s and you’re exactly right Sid and that’s what God was doing here.
Sid: Well you’re just exploding so many thoughts but let’s go back to what is total forgiveness.
RT: What do you think I should say what it isn’t?
Sid: That’s one way to understand.
RT: It is not approval of what they did, you see God never approved of our sin He hates sin and so Jesus forgave the woman found in adultery but it didn’t approve of what she did He told her leave your life of sin. And so when we forgive it doesn’t mean we approve what they did nor does it mean that we excuse what they did. We got to forgive people but it doesn’t mean we excuse them, or it doesn’t mean we justify what they did. So nor does it mean that we pardon what they did. Back to the lady who was raped by a person from a Middle Eastern country. She didn’t pardon him but she certainly forgave him in her heart. And another very important point I think that we already touched on this I think it was maybe on the program yesterday forgiveness is not necessarily reconciliation there not always the same thing. You see reconciliation requires the participation of two people the person you forgive may not want to see you or talk to you or they may have passed away since the time of the offense. Not only that Sid you may not want to maintain a close relationship with the person you forgive. So the main thing is you’ve got to forgive them but it doesn’t mean necessarily reconciliation.
Sid: You know a lot of people beat themselves down because they think it means those other things.
RT: Yeah I know I call it pseudo-guilt, living in guilt but the main thing is that we forgive them. And I ought to add one other thing total forgiveness is not denying what they did sometimes people will live in denial and say “Well I can’t believe those people really did that to me.” It’s not blindness to what they did the truth is you’ve got to say “They did do that, what they did was not very nice.”
Sid: And it’s also not very justifying saying “Oh well they had a bad father that taught them to act that way it’s not excusing what they did.”
RT: And I’ll add something else “A lot of times people say to forgive is to forget.” That’s not true you see we say forgive and forget but the truth is we can’t forget we know what they did.” But what we do mean by that is that we don’t bring it up, we don’t keep pointing the finger, you can’t deny what they did. And so that’s the important thing you don’t live in denial and pretend, you’re forgiving when you know good and well what they did was not right, it was wicked, it was evil but you forgive them because God has forgiven us and we’re to pass that on.
Sid: And you say when you discuss this in your book “What Total Forgiveness is Not.” You talk about people it’s not pretending we’re not hurt, so what do we do with our hurts?
RT: Well God let David know how grieved he was over his sin of adultery and so God did not pretend not to be hurt. And David a man after God’s own heart was still the object of God’s being ruthlessly impartial with David. So Jesus was hurt when he was struck in the face by a priest official, he said “Why did you strike me?” So he didn’t pretend that he wasn’t hurt we are hurt but we don’t want to make the other person feel guilty and when we have totally forgiven we will set them free from any kind of guilt.
Sid: And you know what I do in my own life is I don’t look for that other person to heal my hurt I go to God and I say “Father I’m hurting.”
Sid: I need Your love, You’re the only one that can give me the love any way.
Sid: Well what is total forgiveness now we know what it’s not.
RT: Okay it’s refusing to say what they did to make them look bad, another thing you won’t let the people be afraid of you. Joseph as soon as he revealed who he was those brothers were terrified and he looked at them probably in tears and he says “Come close to me, come close to me.” He didn’t want them to be afraid but you see if you have hurt me and I haven’t forgiven you I’m going to want you to be afraid of me. And had Joseph not forgiven those brothers the moment he saw how scared they were he could have said “Gotcha good I’m glad to see how you feel I’ve waited for this moment!” But instead he says “Come close to me he was just wanting to feel love from the, he wanted them to feel loved.”
Sid: Mishpochah time is slipping away and I want to leave you with one thought to ponder until we come back tomorrow. Unforgiveness keeps you from loving again, think about that.