Sid: I’ve got on the telephone Gary Whetstone; he is Pastor of Victory Christian Fellowship. He is also head of the Gary Whetstone Worldwide Ministry which has started 207 Bible schools throughout the entire world. He’s authored a number of courses, one that’s got into my hands I believe supernaturally to change your life. It’s on marriage, it’s a 6 cassette series on marriage. I personally have heard a lot of teaching that is in this but there is teaching in here that I have never heard expressed in such a way I believe with such an anointing that if you know someone that is about ready to get married oh the greatest wedding present in the world you could give them is this series. If you know someone whose marriage is in trouble and I have to believe that with the stresses and pressures of the last days and the Sodom and Gomorrah environment of this world most marriages Christian or not are going through challenges. If you have a bad marriage, I believe that it will make a good marriage. If you have a good marriage, it’ll make it a better marriage. Well Gary we left people hanging on the edge of the seat yesterday, here you are in a mental institution there’s no hope but an electronic lobotomy which will end up making you a vegetable. You get born again 2 days before, you’re in your right mind you realize what’s going on; you go to the psychiatrist and you tell him you found God and he thinks that those are the buzz words to say that you’re really sick. There’s one day left, you have one day to live literally before you become a walking vegetable where they suck out part of your brain and you’re walking back to your padded cell there’s a guard on either side. For some reason, they didn’t put the restraints on you. Why didn’t they?
Gary: Well Sid that was very usual because I always was in feet and arm restraints when I was out in any type of traveling area in the hospital. But for some reason it must have just been God. You know the scripture says that “God will never allow you to be tempted beyond that which you are able to endure, but with the test He will always provide a way of escape.” Literally as I was in that corridor and about to be led back into my isolation area I heard a voice. You got to realize Sid voices are not brand new to me in the mental deranged state I was in I was hearing voices a lot. This voice was very different. I’ll never forget it I was standing there and I got one guard that’s ready to receive he’s looking through the window the other one that just let me out of the area is looking through the window and I here this voice and it says “Run!” Now like any good mental patient you’re thinking “Okay run, run where?” Well, I stop dead in the middle of this hallway and I thought “Okay, run where?” Just like I talked to a voice is what I did. And the next thing I know I heard this voice again say “Run!” And I mean to tell you something erupted on the inside of me and I started looking around. Well, as it turns out this corridor is an outside corridor that goes to an outside area which always had the 2 dead bolts and like a crash bar like a chain around it and padlock. It’s never as far as I know been open for years but that day that door all of the dead bolts were open and the chain and the padlock were unlocked. And I looked and that door was open, something happened inside of me, I mean to tell you I started running across that mental hospital ground. It was in November and this was back in 1971 and it was snowing outside here in the east coast at Delaware. I had the Property State Hospital, Property State Hospital pants, socks, obviously you’re not allowed to have a belt or shoelaces because their afraid you’re going to hang yourself and I am booking across this mental hospital ground in New Castle, Delaware. Actually just about 5 minutes from the church that I Pastor and I realized something. And of course as a good mental patient you kind of think slower than normal. I realize I was getting cold and I remembered when the police brought me in that there was an area denoted for the more trusted mental patients they call it the commissary. I’d never been there because I was never permitted to be in a public population and I ran into that place. I was feeling cold, my feet were soaking wet with my socks on and snow covered area. And as I entered in here you know that movie “One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest” you know I kind of joke about it but in reality…
Sid: You can really relate to that though.
Gary: Oh yeah it was a real shocking experience, I came into that area and I scream out “I’m on a run” and you could just picture this 50 – 60 mental patients there and they start beating on the desk “Run, run, run!” (Laughing)
Gary: And this seem incredible one guy throws me these huge shoes, they got to be size 13 or 14. Another guy threw this big old blue pea coat the guy must have gone 450 lbs and I put these clothes on and I looked like Dopey you know one of those dwarf… you know. Big old shoes and of course he couldn’t have shoe laces either so they flopped over and it was terrible. So I toke back off on the other side of the commissary, had long red hair and long red beard and remember my brother’s the President of a pagan motorcycle club so I was kind of involved in a bunch of stuff before I kind of mentally checked out. And I realized and this might sound funny but really somebody might think I’m escaping from the mental hospital. You know you know you got to think about and say “Well of course they would.” Well, I shoved my hair into my coat and my beard and they had a guard at the gate area where you’d be allowed out. And I thought “This guy’s going to think I’m on a run.” You know what happened?
Gary: I walked by him and he never saw me.
Sid: Well, you weren’t very obvious with the oversized boots.
Gary: That probably looked like a blur to him.
Sid: That had to be… he had to be blinded.
Gary: Oh yeah.
Sid: Supernaturally he had to be blinded.
Gary: And you know not only that but the 2 guards that were standing there watching me did not see me escape and did not even report that I was missing until Friday when they came to get me for the electronic process they were going to do. No record, no sight, nobody saw me escape it was a bonafide miracle.
Sid: So what happened?
Gary: Well, I got out to the highway and for some reason I ran into the highway. And this is another shock. I’m in church now it’s 15 years later, 18 years later and I’m pasturing the church. Somehow this lady inside of our church says “Oh, my God” in the middle of the service she says “You’re the one.” So afterwards I said “What do you mean I’m the one.” She said “During 1971 she ran through a man with a big blue pea coat with red hair and piercing blue eyes.” And I remember when I came out of the mental hospital I literally ran right into the road and I saw a car and I don’t know it was all kind of a mental blur but it was like the car ran through me. The next thing I knew I was on the sidewalk and that car was pulled off to the side of the road.
Sid: And what does this woman say occurred?
Gary: Who she is she’s one of the Clinical Physiologists in the hospital with a PHD of Physiology. She was also a born again Spirit filled Christian. She sat on the front…
Sid: For those that has just tuned in we found out that 2 days before this electronic lobotomy Gary had become born again, but go ahead.
Gary: Yeah, I was incredible. Now this lady is on the side of the road and she is ready to call the police and report me as being an escapee of the mental hospital. All of the sudden she was just shook because she thought she ran over me which she didn’t somehow God delivered me from being killed there. And she said that God spoke to her “Do not report him that this man belonged to God and God had a call on his life.” She never reported me.
Sid: Gary we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow broadcast but there is an urgency there are people listening to us that their whole destiny is going to be changed. The ministry God has entrusted to you is unbelievable with what you’re telling me where you’re coming from. But there are people whose marriages that are about ready to bust up which will cause them to move into the wilderness for who knows when and we’re in the last of the last days and God has a destiny and it’s His desire that these marriages be strong. In your opinion is there any such thing as a hopeless marriage?
Gary: You know Sid just because of my own experience having been divorced with my wife Faye in 1975, and remarried her again in 1976; seeing the thousands of families that have been trained in the course called “What God has Joined Together” I can honestly say “Just like when God had Hosea constantly reconcile with Gomer, the prostitute, God has a covenant in marriage. That there is absolutely no marriage that God cannot restore with the right understanding, with the right revelation of God’s word, with the yielding to the Spirit of God every marriage can and will be restored.
Sid: I have to ask you this Gary I’ve listened to other marriage series I’m more excited about this than anything I’ve ever heard on marriage. Where did you get this teaching from? I know you got it from the Bible because it’s all biblically based, but where did you get this teaching from?
Gary: When I remarried my wife in 1976, I spent 7 years from basically ’75 up to ’82 studying for hours every day the word of God on how to be a man, how to be a father, how to be a husband. How God orchestrates and organized marriage, what did it mean? I went through all of the Greek and the Hebrew understanding an intense study, only to find out that the truth of God’s word that are discovered and unveiled in this series has the incredible authority to deliver a man and or a woman who is operating dysfunctionally in a marriage. In that time of 7 years of study is what anchored me and my wife into our successful marriage we have today. We’re married 25 years with what I call 9 months off with bad behavior.
Sid: And I have to believe that this is not as true in your church but most of the marriages today in Christian families half of them end in divorce, and the other half because of the word you said was a catch all word was dysfunctional because we had dysfunctional marriage it’s not a cope out but we’re stuck with all of these curses. This course is going to turn your life around…
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. There is such a presence of God in this studio. You see, we’re in the last of the last days. Why do I say this? There was an emphasis on the Holy Spirit, the charismatic movement, and rightfully so. There was an emphasis on the power of the Word of God and the name of Jesus, and rightfully so. But the final emphasis will on Father God, Abba. Malachi puts it this way: “Before Elijah comes to announce the return of the Messiah, the hearts of the children will be knit with the hearts of the fathers. And the hearts of the fathers will be knit with the hearts of the children or there will be a curse.” But guess what, the reverse is also true. If the hearts of the children are knit with Father God, it will be great, great blessing. Hank Kunneman has never shared what he’s going to share, completely publically. Why now, Hank?
HANK: The Lord told me to. He said the reason why you grew up in the family that you did and you went through some of the things that you did is so that you can help others. People are hurting today. You know, one of the first things that Jesus came to proclaim was healing to the broken-hearted. People today are wanting to know, God, are you angry at me? Are you ashamed of me? Lord, do you really want to be involved in my life? And I feel that God is saying, I want to be involved. Hank, share your story. Tell people how much the Father loves them and demonstrate—
SID: Now it’s kind of painful, I’m sure, for you to share this. At age one, your birth father walks out on the family. Age two, your mother remarries, blended family, non-Christian family. How did you feel
HANK: Well I felt a sense of like, first of all, I didn’t really want anybody to know my business, so to speak, and I thought, really what difference would it make? And I felt like the things that I went through were just kind of my own story. But I realize that sometimes, especially as ministers, the whole reason we’re a minister is to minister to others to give people things that they can relate to in their life. And growing up and having a biological father, of course he’s not alive today, disappear from you, never knowing what he looked like, what he sounded like, what his futures were like, and having to hold on to that was very difficult. I came to know my stepdad who adopted me at two years of age and he would raise me, growing up really in a non-Christian home, never really hearing the words, “I love you.” It was difficult. It was tough. And I just felt like how can anybody relate to this. And I didn’t realize at the time that, Sid, there is a generation of people that some have grown up without a dad. Some have grown up and had to see their dad walk away. Some are feeling the effects of abuse and rejection. Some have never been told that God loves them and we have to get this story out because I believe it’s the final revelation before Jesus comes. And if I can take my life to help somebody else, I’m willing to do it.
SID: Okay. Christmas time, did you see a difference between your adoptive grandparents to their natural grandchildren and you?
HANK: Growing up, because it was a blended family, again I was adopted by my stepdad. He was a very disciplinary military guy. He didn’t really grow up with the greatest example of what love is and really how to be a dad that expresses that kind of love. And so at Christmas, the adoptive grandparents would treat me, and they would say out of their mouths something very hurtful. They would say to me, “You’re not real blood. You’re not one of us.” They would talk about how they had a lot of money and that I wouldn’t get any of the inheritance like the other grandkids would. They would say, “We’ll you’re not going to get a present or you’re going to get a smaller present because you’re not real flesh and blood.” As a young kid 10, 11, 12 years old, I didn’t understand it. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be like them, why I was being treated different, and it took a lot of time to feel, not feel rejected.
SID: You told me that you would go to your bedroom by yourself and weep.
HANK: I would cry. Yeah. I would cry because I didn’t feel that sense of love. I felt them push me away and yet I loved my stepdad no different. But to them, it didn’t matter. I didn’t carry their same blood. And so they made life difficult, and unfortunately it brought a lot of strife into the family, trying to divide the family over, you know, real blood, non-real blood.
SID: And you know how wonderful God is? With this kid that his heart is crying, I need a daddy, at age five, God speaks to him. What did He say?
HANK: It was interesting. I was five years old. I was on the island of Guam because my dad was in the military. And I was leaning up against my parents’ car and I was looking up at the sky, and all of a sudden I heard a voice. I’ll never forget it. And it was almost like off to my right side, and it began to speak to me. And it talked to me, obviously in a childlike way where I would understand. It was Abba revealing himself to me, telling me His hand was upon my life, telling me He had good things for my life. He told me that He was going to reveal who He was over a period of time in my life, and that I was to do good things, and always try to do what was right. That dramatically changed me because I started feeling like there was someone or something out there that really was interested in who I was.
SID: You know, the presence of God is getting so strong in this studio right now. Someone’s neck and spine has just been healed. And I’m going to tell you something else. When you capture this revelation, no one is going to take it away from you. We’ll be right back.
Sid: My guest Hank Kunneman is red hot for the Messiah because God has given him a revelation that transformed his life and is going to transform the lives of a generation. Why? Because we’ve had the revelation of God the Holy Spirit and we needed it and rightfully so. We have had the revelation of the power and the name of Jesus the Son of God rightfully! But we haven’t had the revelation of God the Father, it’s the final revelation before the Messiah returns. On yesterday’s broadcast Hank Kunneman said “I’m going to share things for the first, I’ve never shared to this degree publically before and I’m doing it because God told me that there are people that need this.” And I’m going to tell you something on yesterday’s broadcast we found out he had a stepfather and he had a blended family, and he felt as if he really wasn’t a Kunneman because it wasn’t his natural father but even more so as a child notices differences his father’s parents favored the children that came from his father’s first marriage and it hurt. Christmas time Hank would see a difference but in this maze I mean we humans are so complex and all of the emotions going on as a child and Hank sees these things going on; even in the midst of all of this at age 5 God reaches down and speaks to him. And of course he was raised in a non-Christian family and what did you make of this at age 5 when God spoke to you?
Hank: You know what it did for me is it gave me awareness and a hunger. It was like a seed that went into me that I began to search to know what that was and who it was. And so things would happen, in fact one of the things that was said to me growing up I was a little guy walking into the grocery store with my would be my blood grandma. You know people would stop me some elderly woman who were shopping and say to my grandma “You know that young man God’s hand is upon his life.” And that would scare me not like I didn’t think of it as the call, I thought that His hand was upon me and He would bring me back to those words that “I was to do good and treat others nice.” And even when I was being mistreated you know by even some of my brothers and sisters at times and my grandparents you know the adoptive grandparents. I stayed in an attitude the best that I knew how to treat people with honor and treat them with respect. But I’ll tell you what I’ve learned though, God is more than just a creator, He’s more than just a biological parent. You know He’s not like some of us like my biological father who disappeared; you know some that are listening today they had fathers who disappeared they don’t even know where they are at. Or maybe they do know where they are at but they were left without a father.
Sid: We have a generation that is raised with single parents.
Hank: That’s right but you could tell by the first question recorded in scripture that God wanted to be more than a creator. This is why I believe it’s a Father Revelation.
Sid: What was the first question in the garden?
Hank: “Adam where are you?” If He didn’t want to be more than a creator He would never have asked a question “Where are you?” and then go and find his son who had blown it, who blew it. And that’s the thing sometimes we think “Golly you know our lives we’ve blown it, we’ve made mistakes, you know we’ve been without a father; maybe we didn’t grow up in the most ideal family.” God is the one as Abba, He’s always pursuing, we see this with the story of the prodigal son. It was the father that ran and kissed the young man falling upon his neck and kissing his neck after the prodigal son blew it. And so I see this with Abba’s love and I see where this is very important revelation for today; let me give you an example you know. As I began to grow up in my home and things were heated. I used to sit back and think “How come my mom and dad you know they’re allowing a lot of this to go on you know this devise, this divisiveness between the grandparents and you’re not a real blood relative or you know you’re half or you’re not at all. And that’s not to fault them. But I couldn’t understand why this was taking place. And so even my stepdad he was a tremendous man, a very hard working man. He would come underneath the protector and the provider type you know put a roof over your head. Put food in front of you but there wasn’t a lot of affirmation. In fact Sid I was never told growing up, I never heard the words and I’m not saying this to be divisive, I’m not saying this to be harsh because the story there’s a good ending but I’d love to share with this listeners, but here’s the point, I never heard the words, “I love you.” And that’s…
Sid: How important is that for a child to have that affirmation, to hear “I love you for a parent?”
Hank: Well the revelation of love you know we think about lst Corinthians chapter 13 and we always quote it you know that that’s how we’re supposed to be as Christians. “Love is patient, love is kind, love doesn’t boil over in jealousy, you know love doesn’t take in account a suffered wrong.” But if you think about what the scriptures says in the book of 1 John it says “That God is love.” So the very essence and definition of love is who God is and so when you read that in Corinthians it isn’t just how we should be as loving Christians and loving others and but it’s God’s revelation of who He is.
Sid: You know what I believe that if you would read those characteristics if God is love what are the characteristics of not necessarily our love but a God kind of love. I believe that as you read this Hank say it almost prophetically and it’s going to start healing people that are listening.
Hank: God is patient, God is kind, God is not prideful, arrogant, or conceited. God’s love does not boil over in envy. God’s love is He doesn’t take into account of a suffered wrong. And so the reason why I say this is because when you don’t have that in your life from a parent and all your getting is the opposite you’re getting harsh. Like I was never abusive but he never showed very often the affirming side of love. Because he didn’t know how he came from a generation and from an upbringing that really didn’t emulate…
Sid: You know I can really relate to what you’re saying because my father came from that same type of generation. Now I know in retrospect he loved me, however he never said it. He never affirmed me to my memory so I can really relate to what your background was Hank.
Hank: But see that’s the whole reason Jesus came into the earth. He said “If you’ve seen Me you’ve seen the Father.” It’s the very reason why the Pharisees got angry, I mean John 8 they were accusing him of being illegitimate because of the revelation they had was God the Father has a corporate Father but not as a personal Daddy. And it also upset the Pharisees that Jesus was using the word Abba. He was talking in their mind as a small child that he wasn’t using an older term for Father. And he was also personalizing, this is my Dad, this is my father. And I talk about that in my writing. Now here’s what’s interesting when Jesus rose from the dead this is why affirmation is so important. There may be some out there listening today saying “You know what I can relate to Hank when I grew up I never heard the words, ‘I love you’ from my father.” And now the Father is speaking out of heaven and I believe He is speaking to this generation and He is saying “I love you, I’m not mad at you, I affirm you; yeah you might have made mistakes and yes maybe you are making mistakes, but I as your Father am looking down and I wanted to do what Jesus did with the children.” Because if you’ve seen Jesus you’ve seen the Father and that is where he began to welcome the children into his lap, Jesus did. And I believe that the Father is calling people today to Himself, He’s reaching His arms out and saying “Come here.” Maybe you had a father that disappeared, maybe you don’t even know who your biological father is, maybe you’re adopted, maybe you have a stepparent. Maybe you had those that say “You’re not real flesh and blood.” The beauty of it Sid is God is pulling His kids and those that He had created close to Him and He’s wanting to pour out His love an affirmation. You know I had teachers growing up they told me “Don’t publically speak you’re not good at it, don’t write you’re not good at it.” But today Abba has graced my life to where I’m now able to stand on platforms around the world preaching for Him, and I’m able to write books. Just because somebody said we can’t do something Abba will affirm us and I think that’s the message I want people to hear today is “Yeah we might go through some things and yes we have hurts and pains but if we’ll turn over to the Lord and we’ll call out to Abba and we’ll say Abba I need You He’ll affirm you.”
Sid: What does the word Abba mean exactly?
Hank: It means Daddy, or Poppa. It’s a more intimate description. Well if somebody says “What happens if I call God Abba?” Here’s what I said, whatever you… Moses wanted to see the glory of God. He said “Lord show me You glory.” And then God said “Alright, here’s how you’re going to get my presence.” See Abba wants to hug people, how does He hug people? He brings His presence, it’s like a magnet when you call God that’s why when He appeared to Moses He said “I will proclaim the name of the Lord, I am merciful and gracious full of loving kindness and truth and goodness.” So God was telling Moses “If you want to draw Me to you here’s what you say,” it’s the same way today. If we want the affirmation maybe we didn’t get from our parents we need to say “Abba.” And I…
Sid: And by the way your literally telling us to say that, you are literally because in your book you explain this. You are literally saying every time we say out loud and with our heart and with our words, “Abba.” He draws closer to us oops we’re out of time again.
Sid: My guest is Bill Johnson Senior Leader of Bethel Church in Redding, California. And I’ve had the privilege of sitting under Bill’s ministry, and I have to say I don’t know of anyone else I’ve seen that have had so many manifestations of miracles. So I wanted to find out how this happened. Well I can’t even call them normal because he’s a 5th generation Pastor and it runs in his genes, in his DNA. But not what he experienced one night the electricity of God… Bill Johnson, did it hurt this electricity of God? I know that if lightning hits you that would hurt?
Bill: It wasn’t painful but also was not pleasant it was very very uncomfortable. It was gratifying in the sense that I lived so aware of God being in the room, but physically it was not a pleasant experience of what I felt physically.
Sid: So this happened 3 nights in a row from about 3:00 to 6:00 AM in the morning. The third night, if I understand you right, that same presence of God went on your wife.
Sid: Now did she deal with it better than you?
Bill: I don’t know the process she went through on the inside I think it was more of just an unusual encounter with the Lord. I don’t know that He had to hunt for the same thing in her heart that He had to find in mine.
Sid: And repeat for those that didn’t listen yesterday what did He basically say to you?
Bill: The Lord was looking for me to give up my right for dignity. That He wanted the right to be able to use me in any way that He wanted even if I looked foolish, even if I didn’t come across as being dignified or respectful and giving up the right for that is sometimes important for the ministering of the gospel.
Sid: Well you did finally say “You counted the cost” as it says in the Bible and you said “Yes to the Lord.” Tell me the first time you lost your dignity.
Bill: (Laughing) Well it was a season of time where the visitation. It just came in ways that we didn’t expect we didn’t know what to do. It was the Lord dealing with me because I have said yes in the secret place He trusted me to lead some of those meetings in a public place. So the Holy Spirit would come in greater power, we didn’t always know what was happening we would examine the fruit afterwards, we’d find out that a marriage was healed, we’d find that somebody’s body was healed or some person came to Christ or something. But it didn’t always look logical at the time. And so it was something that happened to me publically but it also happened to most everyone else in the room. So it was a process and it was a season of many years where I was required because of that “Yes” that I made to the Lord I was required to live with a certain amount of risk to see what the Lord wanted to do in a given setting.
Sid: Did you ever get used to that, that risk because that doesn’t sound like the type of person you were?
Bill: No, no I’ve never I’ve had to push into it in a sense for the miracles and the healings that we see happen. It certainly easier today than it was 15, 16 and 17 years ago but I still have to intensely push into it realizing that I don’t know what’s about to happen. I’m pushing into the unknown only knowing that God is good and that He will do something significant. And so I don’t get paranoid but I really want to make sure that I hear correctly because I know that often times breakthrough is connected to our deliberate and accurate obedience.
Sid: Okay, you’ve been at this how many years has it been since this power encounter?
Bill: Since that encounter would be 1995 so it’s 18 years.
Sid: Okay, what… tell me some secrets that you have learned in that period of time that you wished that you had known at day one, if you had down it you might have not said yes. (Laughing)
Bill: (Chuckle) The secrets have to deal in 2 areas. One is the nature of God and the other is how He uses us. So the first thing would be the thing that I wished I had known you know 20-30 years ago 40 years ago when I first started. I wish I would have known how good God was. Just discovering the absolute perfect goodness of God has been the greatest delight of my life. That goodness doesn’t translate into tolerating sin, people misunderstand that and that’s not accurate but He is so incredibly kind. And I wish I would have known that because all of the healing, all of the prophetic, all of the things that we have experienced really flow out of that goodness. His heart of great, great love and compassion and affection for people; I wished I would have known that better at the beginning.
Sid: Most people judge God by their earthly father.
Bill: That’s true.
Sid: And that’s a wrong thing to do because how can you judge a human against pure love.
Bill: Yeah, you’re right and that’s messed a lot of people up because they didn’t have a good home. I had a great home and I still struggle with it and so I can only imagine what people deal with that were raised in a abusive or less than kind household. So it’s just one thing that I wish I had known earlier than I did. The second is I had this notion that you had to be a special person for God to use you. You know I grew up and my family had sat under Wigglesworth Ministry and uncle was a soloist for Aimee Semple McPherson and so we had a lot of good…
Sid: You know you are provoke… you know I’m Jewish and the Bible says “The Gentile believers to provoke the Jews to jealousy, but you’re sure doing it now but go ahead. (Laughing)
Bill: Yeah well, I grew up hearing those stories and it put an appetite in me which is really good but I caught a message that nobody was telling me but somehow I caught it that you had to be a special person. You know Wigglesworth was unusually gifted in faith, Kathryn Kuhlman had an unusual sense of God’s presence and I just never qualified. And so I would dismiss this urge to see the authentic gospel displayed with purity and power, but it kept coming back, kept coming back, kept coming back until I went to a John Wimber Conference and I saw them model demonstrate and teach how everyone, everyone can do this. And it changed my life and I’m forever indebted to…
Sid: Now wait a second now you told me about that power encounter where electricity came over your body 3 nights in a row for 3 hours so you were a special person. How can you say that that person listening to me can do what you can do?
Bill: Well first of all okay it started in ’87 it started before ’95 and it started when I was pasturing a small tiny little church up in the mountain. I didn’t have any kind of experience or reputation or anything, I just went to a conference where I saw John Wimber and his team the Vineyard Movement I saw them model how every person can do this and they did it in a way that they that fit my life. You know it was hard for me to ever imagine me being in a large crusade preaching to 10’s of 1000’s of people but I knew that I could talk one on one and could pray for someone. And they modeled that for me and it set me up and that’s when the miracles started it was 1987. The explosion came in ’95 but that wasn’t something I knew would happen. But I cried out for more knowing that I had tasted enough to be ruined forever. I really wanted a greater and a more significant breakthrough so that was my hearts cry you know and that’s how and when the Lord really really visited me that’s then.
Sid: You know I hear this often for lack of a better words such a desperation for more of God and I’ve heard this from many people that have had wonderful ministries. But if I’m understanding you right whether someone has that supernatural desperation or not when they understand it they can go for God desperately and end up with the same things that you and the people out at your school get.
Bill: Yeah, I believe that I do God is moved by hunger. And people that are hungry, you know people let me say this I’ve seen people that get really hungry but they end up in unbelief because their hunger is a striving, it’s not anchored in the goodness of God it’s not anchored in promises it’s just… it’s anchored in an ideal that they never reach. I see others that they are hungry but they know that God is good and they’re seeking for this wonderful Father to touch them more deeply and profoundly. What hurts people is when they try to have somebody else’s experience. I think it’s legitimate for us to pursue outcome but not experience.
Sid: You know what I would love everyone listening to us to do and that is have you come to their house invite a few of their friends and teach them the most important thing that every Christian has to learn how to host the presence of God. Here let me read to you what Heidi Baker said when she got a hold of this book. Bill Johnson’s book “Hosting the Presence” is one of the most powerful books that I have ever read. I was undone by chapter 1 and found myself weeping and crying out for more of the manifest presence of God to rest on my life. I was wrecked with a greater hunger to be fully possessed by the glory of God and filled with fresh longing for my life to be distinguished by His presence…”
Sid: There is a book that’s shaking up people all over the world. Why do I say that it’s shaking up people? Because certain prophetic events happened it talked about them. And so some of the top secular talk show hosts of America are saying the most amazing things about this book and it was written by a evangelical Christian whose father just happens to come from an orthodox Jewish background. And the book is called “The Last Days” the first book that Joel Rosenberg wrote was called “The Last Jihad.” And Joel how in the world did you get the idea to work into the story line all about the terrorism that would happen to America and you wrote the book before 9/11 and that’s what blows people out of the water. How did you get your thoughts to even do such a book, how did you do such a book I understand you were praying to God about it.
Joel: I was, let me set up what’s dramatic about the book and then I’ll go back and explain that. Because people that have not read “The Last Jihad” does not realize is that the first page of the book puts you inside the cockpit of a highjack aircraft highjacked by radical Islamic terrorists coming in on a kamakasi attack mission into an America city. Now I wrote that 9 months before September 11th. As the plot of “The Last Jihad” unfolds the FBI and the CIA trance the trail of terror back to Bagdad to Iraq. And suddenly the President of the United States and his senior advisors find themselves in a showdown with Sadheim Hussein over weapons of mass destruction. All of that was written before 9/11 before the debate over going to war in Iraq and certainly before the war itself. And when it came out people were just stunned “How could you have possibly known this?” Now with people getting a sense of what it’s about back up the clock to January 2001. I had worked for a lot of interesting political leaders over the years Bill Bennett, Jack Kemp, Steve Forbs, Rush Limbaugh. As well as former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu but after all of that about 10 or 11 years in the political life Sid I felt like my wife and I were praying “What should I do now with the rest of my career?” I had to ask myself “If I had been as passionate about sharing the gospel with people as I had for example with Flat Tack when I worked with Steve Forbs? And the honest conclusion was I’m comfortable but no, I had been more passionate about the flat tax or the social security reform or conservatism in general then I had about sharing my faith in Jesus as the Messiah. So my wife and I began to pray Jeremiah 33:3 “Call to Me and I will hear you and answer you and show you great and mighty things you do not know.” And my wife and I were praying with our kids we’ve got 3 boys Caleb, Jacob and Jonah 9, 7 and 5 years old we call them the Ringling Brothers.
Joel: Three ring circus in our house.
Sid: I’m sure.
Joel: And we’d been praying with them you know Daddy needs to write a book but we need to ask God for a story something interesting that will draw people in on a fascinating story. And then about ¾’s of a way into it when hopefully somebody can’t put it down Daddy can share the gospel with people, that was my heart; that was my prayer. We were praying Jeremiah 33:3 because Daddy did not have a story to tell. Well in January of ’01 I sat down and the story that began to come out was about this high-jacked jet coming in on this kamakasi attack mission. Now some of the details were different I had visioned a flight coming into Denver and not to New York or Washington at a business jet not a commercial airliner. But the operation times that were so chillingly real in the morning of 9/11 my wife and kids and I we live in Washington not far from the Pentagon I was actually writing the second to last chapter of the last Jihad about a kamakasi attack that leads to a war with Iraq when the news began to break about these attack and it was a horrifying time for all of us in America particularly in Washington. And I had just been to the top of the World Trade Center just a few weeks before with then Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neal we had lunch in there with some Wall Street executives. And I had been right in that restaurant on the 110th floor just marveling at this amazing feat of human engineering and technology and now is all gone. And I’m telling you as having written a story that just was so chillingly real to events that were now beginning to unfold it was was eerie I’m not sure of another way to put it. But it also felt like there’s no way I could publish this book now I mean it was too real, too raw and it wasn’t until January…
Sid: It’s a good thing that we don’t have to figure things out when we’re working for God.
Joel: Well, that’s true because I said to the Lord…I had been praying Jeremiah 33:3 and You gave me a fascinating story but now this book is useless there’s no way we can sell this book. Well, I felt like the Lord was…I don’t know what the Lord was saying to be honest it was not like He was saying “Wait” I didn’t know what He was saying I was confused. But in January of ’02 my wife and I were watching the State of the Union Address when President Bush talked about the access of evil and said the next great threat to the United States was Saddem Husseim because of his connection to terrorism.
Sid: Which you had in your book.
Joel: Exactly and his connections to weapons of mass destruction. Now at that moment Lynn and I just looked at each other and went aw-o it’s like the Twilights Zone. And the next day my agent called and he said “Do you work for the CIA.”
Joel: You know every time I try to tell them “No I don’t.” He says “Well, that’s just what you have to say if you did work for the CIA. I don’t but it was clear at that point that something…a dramatic turning point had just happened. This novel which was so real a few months before because you couldn’t sell it because it was too painful for people now was foreseeing a battle with Saddeum over weapons of mass destruction that was now as it turned out that was a year and a half or a year and 3 months away. A publisher picked it up very quickly and the book came out in November ’02 and at that moment no one had ever heard of Joel Rosenberg, no one had ever heard of “The Last Jihad” but God had a book there that was so amazingly close to reality that He lifted it into the stratosphere. Very few books by first time novelists hit #1 on Amazon.com or spent 11 weeks on the New York Times best seller list.
Sid: How do you know so much about Bible prophecy? How do you know so much about the inner workings of the political scene? How do you know so much about Israel?
Joel: Well, from the time I was in college…well the time I really wrestled through with God and really came to know Him at the age of 17 I became fascinated with prophesy. First and foremost the Messianic prophecy leading up to in fact that Jesus is the Messiah. That just totally intrigued me, that I was excited to… it just every day I leaned it confirmed my faith. But I also fascinated with prophecy of the times at which we live, I was particularly drawn to Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Where Jesus was taught…where the disciples were being asking him “When are you coming back and what are the signs of the last days or the end times before you return? And I just was fascinated, wars, rumors of wars, you know the list, earthquakes, famines, revolutions, persecution of believers, the spread of the gospel. But what fascinated me most was the idea of this parable of the fig tree and the fig tree being so often in the Old Testament the evidence of Israel. And the idea of that Israel would start to blossom again. Or in Ezekiel 37 come together the dry bones coming back together as a country. And then in Luke 21 where Jesus says that “Jerusalem will come back under the control of the Jewish people after a long time after control of a nation of Gentiles. Well, I was born in April of 1967 to months later Jerusalem came back under the control of the Jewish people after as you know 2000 years under the control of many different nations. And this is just totally fascinated me and I…
Sid: You know someone who hasn’t even had an experiential happening with God if they were to just look at these prophecies in Israel they would have to say “This Book is not a natural book, this Bible is a supernatural book and I must believe.”
Joel: That’s right and that’s how it impacted me. And now spiritually like the Lord never took us into becoming missionaries or you know working on a church staff or para-church staff. He took us professionally into the political realm and that’s where and matched kind of a separate track but parallel began to work with very…some of the best Middle East experts in the world.
Sid: Listen you were the Senior Advisor to Netanyahu who I believe is going to be the next Prime Minister of Israel and many other people believe this. What was that like?
Joel: Well, that was a fascinating time because when I got hired to work for the former Prime Minister it was a time when his processor I’m sorry his successor Ahud Burach was Prime Minister. Burach had just come to Washington with Yasser Afafat and Bill Clinton to basically give away 97% of the west bank and Gaza and Samaria.
Sid: We’re going to pick up on that story because we’re running short of time. But what is your personal view of a Palestinian state?
Joel: Well, as I write about this in “The Last Days” I think that…I think that it’s going to happen.
Sid: Unfortunately I do too and I say unfortunately but go ahead.
Joel: Yeah, I think there’s almost like history is compelling it to happen but I don’t believe that you can give away that which is not yours to give. The President, the America President can’t, and the Israel Prime Minister can’t it doesn’t mean they won’t but God promised Judea and Samaria to the Jewish people long before any of the current President or Prime Ministers.
Sid: In other words the west Bank. We’re out of time Joel.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My guest has found that wherever he goes he can release the Spirit of God. I mean, he walks into buying a cell phone. You’ve bought cell phones before. And he’s just talking, but he’s bringing the Spirit of God in this place and h’s figured out how to be conscious of it and how the presence of God will just radiate wherever he goes. And guess what? The people in the cell phone store fall over slain in the Spirit. You’re trusting in an understanding in how to walk in the presence of God like that? I am. You know, miracles just flow off of my guest. I mean, he’s just—I’m just having to put some makeup on me and the makeup artist is telling me she has a rod in her leg. It causes her to waddle and have discomfort. And so I said, Bill, go pray for her. And just a few seconds ago, she was doing makeup, and she said, “This is amazing.” No, it’s not. It’s normal, normal as defined by the Bible. Now Bill, just kind of whet their appetite. What kind of miracles are happening now that are kind of spectacular going on in your life? Is there a trend?
BILL: There seems to be seasons. I don’t understand that. But there seems to be shifts in focus and emphasis. In the last few years we’ve had a great number of people healed of head trauma, very serious brain injuries, fatal things that were terminal diseases of the brain all the way down to dyslexia, bi-polar, those kinds of things. We’ve also had a lot of people healed with metal in their body where they had restricted movement or you could feel a metal plate in the wrist, and the screws and all of that. I really was encouraged from James Maloney, actually, to go after this because he has had so much breakthrough in that area. So I just started taking a risk looking for the problem and then praying for the people, and you can feel that it’s gone, the rod, the plates. The things that would prevent them from bending they now have complete mobility. It’s extraordinary.
SID: Randy Clark did his doctorate thesis. How many people did he say had metal turn to bone, approximately?
BILL: It’s hundreds. It’s hundreds of people in his study that he has names, addresses, everything. Folks, over, I think it was, I think he did it over a three-year period of time. It’s hundreds of people, not those that just raised their hand to say, but actually were able to follow up and verify. And it’s an extraordinary miracle.
SID: Now I think you’re extraordinary, and I’m going to tell you why. Five generations of pastors and his son is the sixth generation. I think that’s phenomenal. You are a blessed man. But even with all of that, you really didn’t feel qualified to move in the supernatural or the spectacular things that are commonplace for you right now. What changed it?
BILL: Oh goodness. I would pray for a season over people. Nothing would happen. [unintelligible] I would read on how to pray for people. Nothing would ever happen. Nobody ever got healed. I had some die, but nobody would get healed.
SID: By the way, he may be joking. But actually I had that happen to me. I started praying people. Someone died
BILL: I’m not joking. It happened to me, too. But anyway, it just wouldn’t leave the pages of scripture. So while I would leave it for a season, I would come back and be encouraged, and go after it. No breakthrough. Finally, in 1987, somebody encouraged me to go to a John Weber conference. And I saw, I heard them teach what I had been teaching for quite an extended period of time. So nothing was different in that aspect. But I saw that they took risks that I wasn’t willing to take. And I came home. I didn’t pray any differently. I started looking for problems, which was a new twist for me. But I didn’t pray differently, but people started getting healed. It just, it wasn’t just on me. It was actually on the entire church, which was what I wanted. I wanted everybody to get in on it, you know. And so I came home, began to look for problems, pray for people, and miracles actually started immediately. And the one that really lit me up, ignited my heart was a miracle that took place in a store. It was in a public place. It was just a friend who was not a believer, confessed their problems, had to retire at an early age with his arthritis. And I just said, God wants to heal you. Took two minutes to pray, whatever. Dramatically, dramatically healed.
SID: What was he healed of?
BILL: Arthritis all through the joints. He couldn’t pull tools. He couldn’t reach for boxes on his shelf. He owned a business and he was going to have to retire and quit at a young age, in his 40s. And he was just dramatically, dramatically healed, in moments.
SID: Are you telling me everyone that is born again can walk in the Kingdom and have miracles happen?
BILL: Oh yeah, absolutely.
BILL: We must.
SID: And no exceptions.
BILL: No, exceptions, no.
SID: They don’t have to fight generations of pastors.
BILL: No, no, no.
SID: Okay. Nineteen nighty-five, Bill gets desperate. For eight months, he is praying. What are you praying for eight months?
BILL: Oh my. I get a little teary-eyed on this one. I just was praying for more. I just, I knew there was more. We were seeing breakthrough and I was so thankful, and I almost felt greedy. But my heart was exploding with hunger for more, more of God, more of His manifest presence, more of the kinds of breakthroughs that we see in Scripture. I cried out day and night. I’d wake up in the middle of the night. I would wake myself praying. I didn’t wake up to pray. I’m actually praying in my sleep and I wake myself up praying.
SID: By the way, you know how I know this is true? His associate pastor went on a retreat with him and he said, all night long he hears this guy pray, “More Lord, more, more,” in his sleep. So I know it’s true. Then he said one thing more. He said there was like a glow over your face.
BILL: Yeah. Yeah, I didn’t find that out until a year or more later.
SID: I think God likes us praying for more. That’s what I believe, wants you praying for more. Okay. So you prophesy to someone. Maybe at three in the morning you have an encounter with God, to someone else. Three in the morning, what happens to you?
BILL: That same night, I woke up with, you know how you’re in a dead sleep and then in an instant, it’s a millisecond you’re as awake as you could possibly be. And I had what felt like a thousand volts of electricity going through my body, and it was terrifying, exhilarating, all of the above. And I had, the only thing I had control of was my head. I turned my head and I saw the digital clock next to the bed. It was three a.m. exactly. And I instantly remembered the prophetic word I gave to a friend, and I said out loud, I said, “You set me up.” Because I knew that this was God, but I couldn’t explain it. It was, I was embarrassed. I mean, my arm, I had no control over my limbs. I would try to grab my arms and bring them down. My legs would get more violent. And it was, this just went on and on, and on. And I felt my face turn red. You know, how you blush. I was embarrassed over what was happening.
SID: Had you ever had any paradigm for this? Had you ever seen something?
BILL: No, never heard of it. Never heard of it.
SID: Okay. Hold that thought. When we come back, I’m going to have him pick up. And in the meantime, you keep telling God, “More God, more.”
Sid: Hello this is Sid Roth here with Tommy Reid. Tommy before we went on the air I was talking to you about your experiences with Dr. Cho. You went there just as was really getting started. And he had never… when you met him did he really tell you he had never seen a miracle?
Tommy: Well he had seen some healings that they interpreted for him but he never seen a great miracle, he never seen a miracle that was kind of earth shattering to him.
Sid: He’d seen a neck being healed from pain which if someone has a pain in the neck and some people do right now you’re being healed. But he had never seen a blind person see, a deaf hear, a dead person come to life that’s what you’re talking about.
Tommy: Yeah, and he look at me and he said “I don’t even know if I believe this.” Now he had been healed as a young man about 18 or 19 so he saw his own healing but he had never seen a miracle take place in church before. I remember I looked at him I was just a young evangelist and I was probably not too kind sometimes maybe. And I looked at him and said “Bother Cho you will see great miracles during the next few weeks” because he was going to travel with me all over the nation. And we did see that, I mean I would look out at the audience I have pictures that I can’t find right now some place in moving they got lost but a lot of people would… every night there would be a cripple walk, there would be a blind eye see, and that’s why so many people came to our meetings. I mean I remember times when we would be carried out on people’s shoulders because they would get so excited about the miracles of God and he saw that and began to believe for that.
Sid: Well tell me about one of the first major miracles he saw.
Tommy: Well one of the first major miracles and God used him in this and he began to believe for miracles we were holding a meeting in a Presbyterian Church a large Presbyterian Church that was jammed with people 1000’s standing on the outside. And I had to go on to the next city so I went on to the next city with another interpreter he stayed and did another week because the Holy Spirit was moving so greatly in that city. One night it came to him and said “Brother Cho there is a person dying in the hospital if you don’t come down right now he may not live until the service is finished.” So he left the service; went down the hill to the hospital walked in and the man was dead. They had pulled the sheet over his head and the doctor said “No use praying for him he’s dead.” Brother Cho now that he gotten this new impetus on healing pulled the sheet down off of his head, commanded the man to walk. He got up off of that bed now put his clothes on and this was a very steep hill between there and the church and he walked him all the way up that steep hill and he walked into the church and said “The dead man is alive!” The first miracle that he saw and that I remember him seeing that was under his own ministry was a dead man brought to life.
Sid: But you know what I believe Tommy I believe we are at the point right now that we are going to see the greatest miracles the world has ever seen. I mean creative miracles, I mean people without limbs the limbs just pop right out. I can’t wait to see see… I just as you talk about the world inside is more real and more important than what’s going on in the outside; on the inside of me I see not just me but I see the average believer that’s listening right now walking in miracles beyond what we’re even talking about.
Tommy: Oh, I have no doubt of that that is the world that is inside of me. I believe that we are on the precipice; we’re on the cusps of seeing miracles like the church has never seen before in its entire history. You know we’ve seen great miracle of healing I’ve seen eyeballs that were growing in people, I’ve seen great miracles of healing but we are on the cusp of seeing something greater than any of us have seen before.
Sid: Tell me one of the most amazing miracles that happened to you in the Philippians.
Tommy: Yeah, this was an amazing miracle I’ve seen many cripples walk but we had gone to a town in the Southern tip of the Boson Island. And there was a group of young people that were opposed to the meetings. And so they were so opposed that we ended up not being able to hold the first nights meeting. So we went out to the country to a little tiny barrio of about 2000 people and set a PA system up and the whole barrio came 2000 people came and jammed that barrio. The little plaza in the center of the Barrio and the Lord said to me and this is unusual because when you’re a healing evangelist you pray for the easy cases first. The Lord said to me “Pray for the hardest case in this place tonight it’s a cripple if you will call them out I will heal them.” So I looked around and so I saw this woman on a stretcher and so I said to the interpreter “What’s wrong with her?” They said “Well, she is unable to walk and I said “God’s going to heal her.” So they brought her up and they kind of dragged her out of bed and put her up on the stretcher in front of me and I said “God is going to heal you tonight; you’re going to be healed and you’re going to walk.” And I asked “What’s wrong with her?” And they said arthritis so I prayed for the arthritis, I rebuked the arthritis as an evangelist will do and she couldn’t walk. And all of a sudden something said inside of me God said to me “Tommy she doesn’t have arthritis you prayed for the wrong disease you must be specific.” So I said to the interpreter “I prayed for the arthritis she wasn’t healed that’s not what’s wrong with her.” Well, they got between Tagalikan and Elik they’d gotten the wrong interpretation and they said “No, she is paralyzed.” She had some kind of a stroke or something and she’s 100% paralyzed in the right side of her body and at least 50% more on the other, she cannot walk.” With that grabbed her and I said “In the name of Jesus I command you to walk.” And she got up and leaped off of that stretcher, began to walk and then she began to run and she ran around and around and around the audience. She as obviously healed there was not doubt about it so I said to her “Well, we’re going to have this big crusade in the capitol city would you come and give your testimony tomorrow night? Well I wanted to be sure she was still healed; oh yea of little faith you know I wanted… so the next morning we drove out to the barrio to see if she and all of the sudden the whole town they saw the little yellow Ford come toward, the whole town 2000 people began to just surge towards us and she was leading them. “I’m still healed, I’m still healed.” And so she came to the audience that night she came to the big meeting and she gave her testimony and when she did these young people who were opposing the meeting said “Oh, the Americano is a rich man he paid her a 100 pesos’ to say that, she wasn’t really healed.” And so it kind of interrupted the meeting and you can understand they didn’t know whether to believe the boys or believe me or to believe the woman. And so the meeting was okay a few people got saved but there were no other miracles. And when we left town to go to the next city all of the sudden I heard the news that the young man who had opposed the meeting came down with the same amount of paralysis 100% in the right side and 50% in his left side. And as far as I know did not walk another day in his life. Now I don’t understand the end of the story all I know it was probably the greatest miracle I’ve ever saw.
Sid: Well the one thing that I do know is if you come against God you’re in big trouble; that was big trouble. You know something that was so amazing to me is tell me about the time your father was dying in Manila.
Tommy: Oh, that was probably the greatest miracle we ever had in our family except my own healing. We had gone to the Philippines on a one way ticket it was interesting how we got there I had sold my Cadillac convertible to pay our way and it paid a one way ticket and enough to stay there a couple of weeks. And we had planned to stay with missionaries and we had everything set to have meetings. We got there and everything fell apart just everything. The place we had to stay the missionary went home; we checked into a hotel we had no money to pay our hotel bill and no ticket back home. And in the middle of all of that my dad laying in that bed contracted some kind of an oriental disease. And got sicker and sicker every day he’d be more and more ill and I’d go into his bedside and want to pray for him. And my dad said “No, no don’t pray for me, pray for our destiny, pray for where we’re going, what we’re going to do.” And then I would say “Let me pray for the finances we need money to go back home; ‘No, no we’re here for a reason, pray for the reason.’” So I walked in there and he wouldn’t let me pray for us, he wouldn’t let me pray for his meal, he wouldn’t let me pray for money, he wouldn’t let me pray for money; he wouldn’t let me pray for a ticket, he wouldn’t let me pray for the hotel bill none of that he wouldn’t let me pray for. Then one day he said “It’s time for God to answer our prayers; that phone is going to ring Tommy and we’re going to be Pastors of Bethel Temple.” I said “That will never happen, I’m 26 years of age they’ll never want me to pastor the largest church in their denomination, they’re not going to want you to pastor you’ve been a businessman you haven’t been a preacher; they’re never going to ask us to pastor the church.” He said “Tommy, that’s the prayer I wanted you to pray destiny; pray for what we’re here to do.” The phone rang and the voice of the Missions Department of Springfield Missouri said “You have been chosen as the new Pastors of Bethel Temple.” Well it solved all of our problems, the money problem, the ticket problem, the place to live problem, then Morris Cerullo walked in and paid our hotel bill.
Sid: But your father was dying I don’t get it.
Tommy: I know I don’t get it either except to know this that God has our destiny in mind. God has a voice that says to us “This is the way, walk yea in it.”
Sid: So was he healed gradually or what happened?
Tommy: Oh no, he was not sick anymore. From the time that that telephone rang and he saw the end of the story at that point he was healed. The fever was gone, the sickness was gone he was perfect.
Sid: Now you have a great love for the nation Israel. The thing that I think is so amazing is in 1948 you were in school and the teacher made an announcement. Tell me the announcement and tell me why it had such an effect on you.
Tommy: It had an effect on me because I lived in the 1930’s when we had all of the prophetic teachers come by our church. A little boy sits there and sermon’s don’t necessarily can’t understand all of them. But when the prophecy teachers would come with all of their charts I could see the pictures I understood that. And they told me that Israel would become a nation, the Jewish people would come back home, and Israel would become a nation again. So I grew up with this knowledge I knew that the Israel would be reborn, I knew the people would come back home; I knew the Jews would be restored to their homeland. So I remember sitting in the classroom in 1948 as a young man in Junior High I remember when the teacher walked in and said “We just heard the announcement Israel is a nation.” And I knew that the word of God was true there was no doubt that what I’d been taught was true. But I had a lot… my dad absolutely love Jewish people. But a Jewish person walked in you would have thought Jesus walked in with my father. He lived to witness to Jews, that was his mission field. We frequented and we would go to Philadelphia and we go to 5th Street and visit all of those little Jewish shops, and every Jew along that street was my dad’s friend. He loved Jews I was taught to love the Jewish people because they were God’s chosen.
Sid: But you know I still… I want to take you back to that… you were in school and a Social Studies teacher you’d been taught your whole life to love the Jew and then one day Israel would be a nation. Well it was impossible for Israel to be a nation but in 1948 tell me the emotion that went on through you inside of your when your teacher says “Israel has just become a nation?”
Tommy: Well I think the first reaction I had is the word of God is true by the time you’re in Junior High and even though I’ve seen the miracles there’s a few dots that begin to come in. All of a sudden I realized this book the word of God is the word of God and it does come to past and I had lived to see one of the greatest events of the history of the world. Sid, I don’t think we can realize even though we say it we can’t realize the immense miracle that God did in the rebirth of Israel, it was a miracle that goes beyond our comprehension.
Sid: I mean it was like if today there was no Israel and tomorrow President Obama says “I declare that Israel is going to be a Jewish homeland.” That would have been impossible for him to say that, it was impossible in ‘48 for Israel to be a nation. But God said “A nation will be formed in one day, and from the 4 corners of the earth the Jews were returned to their homeland.” He even said the ancient language would be spoken in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time I mean Hebrew was just for the holy books, it wasn’t a spoken language today. I mean there were so many miracles that occurred even today why is it that you give your missions money always including going to the Jew first?
Tommy: Well you know God spoke to me and I as you know a lover of Israel Robert Sterns is now the man who is Pastor of the church that I pastured for 50 years. One of the reasons that I wanted Robert here was I wanted to be sure that this church was a recognition of what God was doing with the Jewish people and with Israel. And of course we’re tremendous supporters of Israel. But what I don’t understand is there is not greater miracles except maybe the resurrection that has taken place in the history of the world, than for God not just to save a person, not just to resurrect a person but to resurrect a nation because He made a covenant with them. Tto me it’s the most amazing thing but then I have to realize what God said to Abraham. Abraham said “How do you know, how do I know you’re going to give me this land?” God said “Well I’m going to swear by myself.” And he showed him this picture of the smoking furnace and the pillar of fire representing the Godhead; I’m going to swear by Myself that this is your land.” It is the… how can I believe the covenant of God to heal me if I don’t believe that covenant?
Sid: Tommy our time is slipping away but … When you wrote the book “How to Live Out of a Dream” what did you hope to accomplish?
Tommy: I live in a world that’s different than most preachers; I think I hear things different than most preachers. You know I’m kind a academic when I’m preaching but I can tell you that I don’t want to preach things that I don’t know God has said to me. I want to wake up in the morning and hear Jesus and say the things that He wants me to say. I don’t even want to be on your show and just say things by rote. I want to know that when I speak to you and speak to the world that I’ve heard what God wants me to say. I am firmly convinced that one of the messages that God has for the world today that the problems of our world could be solved, the world could be evangelized if we only heard God’s voice. Most people just don’t hear God’s voice, they don’t listen, their parents tell them you know that’s just your imagination and they cut off the very source of God speaking to them. I want to go out and teach the world to hear God’s voice because I believe its only possible, it’s absolutely mandatory.
Sid: You know there’s so much doom and gloom in the news today that even Christians talking to one another they’re saying “Oh, do you see what’s going on with the morality in America? Do you see what’s going on with the economy? Do you see what’s going on with disease?” But I believe that those that are listening to us right now this is their greatest hour… when we come back I’d like you to teach how we can hear His voice. How we can dream His dreams. I mean you say that it’s simple and I know that it’s simple. Tommy the next broadcast that I do that people will hear I will have just returned from Jerusalem. I’m leaving in a couple of days for Jerusalem. I am going to have a meeting Jerusalem, Israel and we have reservations of 400 people we’re expecting over 500 unsaved Jewish people. What I do is I call it a lecturer on the supernatural and I really I don’t say I’m going to talk about God I say I certainly don’t say I’m going to talk about Jesus. I say I’ve spent the last 35 years studying the paranormal I use that word I want nonbelievers and the supernatural. I’m going to speak an many people are going to be physically healed in their seats, I’ve done this all over the world. But do you realize just as a historic as it was for Israel to become a nation, it is historic for 4 or 500 unsaved Jewish people to hear about the good news of Jesus, witness miracles in their own lives. People will stand up, 30, 40 people are going to stand up and say I’m Jewish nonbelievers I’ve just been physically healed and I believe and I’m believing for 100% a 100% of these Jewish people will stand up and make professions of faith. Now to me that is …has never happened in the history of modern day Israel but we’re in a new time. I’m telling you the move of God has begun.
Sid: I’ll tell you something it difficult to export something you don’t have yourself. And the Messiah came to set the captives free. He came to open up the prison doors, He came… I was reading this morning in Romans the 14th chapter the 17th verse “For the Kingdom of God is not food and drink but it’s righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And very few born again Christians have broken through to freedom, they’ve broken through to maintenance and self-help programs, but there is a difference between maintenance and total freedom. I’m not talking about Christians that perhaps had a drinking problem, or a drug problem, or a smoking problem, I’m saying there are so many little foxes that God says “I want to get rid of because the new wine is being poured out.” He saved the best for last and He wants you free not to walk but to run in the next, in the greatest, and I believe the last move of God’s Spirit in history. “The Kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” You know whether you have the righteousness or not it’s based on the word of God, you know whether you have the peace or not. The Hebrew word, this is Greek of course in the New Testament; the Hebrew word for peace is Shalom and it means completeness in your spirit, soul and body. You know whether you have true Shalom, and you know whether you have joy and if there’s some sort of… I have Craig Hill on the telephone he’s founder of Family Foundations International. And we’re making available this week his book “Freedom from Compulsive Habits Bondage Broken” and his 3 audio cassette teaching series is all connected “Identifying Shame.” And Craig you were talking on yesterday’s broadcast about a man that was set free and then the symptoms came back and he didn’t know what to do about it would you continue that story.
Craig: Sure you know what I’ve found Sid so many times what I’d liken going on in so many peoples lives it’s like smoke, fire and fuel. People have external things going on in their lives such as anger or a temptation to this or that. You know 2 of the most common ones probably are anger and impure thoughts. Really those are just like smoke, this man had an intense temptation back to drugs that is just like smoke and that as we were talking yesterday self-help programs even Christian intense effort programs are really just dealing with the smoke, the obvious point is that where there’s smoke there’s a fire. So we really don’t want to just have a smoke management program trying to manage the smoke so that it doesn’t harm us or harm other people in such an intense way. What we really want to do is we want to find out the source of that smoke which is a fire. So what I found in people’s lives is that when we see smoke there’s always fire. The fire is some kind of wounding experience that happened in people’s lives in the past and in most cases it’s actually in childhood.
Sid: And it’s buried that’s the problem it’s not that someone says “I don’t want to deal with it they don’t even know it so if they don’t recognize that there are symptoms of something deeper they’ll never know about the deeper.
Craig: Right, exactly. And so when you see smoke that smoke isn’t just emanating from no where there’s always a fire. And so there’s a fire that’s there. The fire is some kind of a wounding experience that happened in the past and then they’re fuel to that fire. And the fuel is a deep seated emotional lie that the enemy sows in the hearts of people. And it comes through those wounding experiences that often times that happens in people’s families. And just you just said “People don’t even remember the experience many times but the emotional pain is still there.”
Sid: Well, a lot of people say “But wait a second under the New Covenant if you know who you are you don’t have to dig up all of these things you’re just free.” I’ve heard that preached as long as I’ve been a believer!
Craig: You know the real simple answer to that is “Then there shouldn’t be any smoke!” (Laughing) If there… if that’s true then there shouldn’t be any smoke and what we know is that Yeshua died for those things His blood was shed but we know just like in physical healing that blood has to be applied to the specific area of our life when we do apply that blood. And when we really do allow the Lord to remove that lie then indeed we are free; if the lie is still there it continues to torment deep on the inside.
Sid: Tell me a few of the smoke that you talk about you mentioned anger.
Sid: Everyone knows about drugs and homosexuality and that’s a problem but what are some of the acceptable smokes that people don’t deal with?
Craig: Well you know anger would be one; another one that’s real common especially for men are “Impure thoughts.” Thought lust that they simply don’t want to be there the just don’t tell anybody. Those kind of thoughts torment them but they’re there. Other types of externals that are maybe more acceptable are things like overeating and gossiping, watching television for 6 hours at a time. Jumping on a telephone and just talking and talking and talking those are all mechanisms that our own flesh uses to comfort something deep on the inside.
Sid: Why would it be comfort to talk a lot?
Craig: For some people, and that afflicts women more than men, but it’s not exclusive to women there’s a need on the inside to just talk and talk and talk. And a feeling that “If I can talk about this enough somehow or another I’ll find a solution and it’ll make the pain go away.” So people will just talk and talk and there’s really no goal to it there’s no purpose it’s just a comfort mechanism that’s being used really by the flesh. And the bottom line what we find Sid is that people’s flesh rises up and does something or another to bring a false comfort whenever the soul is out of peace. You know it’s an interesting thing that Hebrews chapter 4 verse 10 it talks about the fact let me just read this scripture. Hebrews 4:10 says “For the one that entered into his rest (This is speaking of God’s rest) has himself also rested from his works as God did from His.” What it’s saying is that a person who’s soul, soul being mind, will and emotions not spirit but their soul. When their soul is not at rest, when you’re soul is not at peace it says that what’s going to happen is that you’re going to busy doing your own works. In other words another way to put that is, whenever something is tormented on the inside, whenever there’s pain on the inside, discouragement, disappointment and emotional lie has been stimulated deep on the inside then your flesh is going to be busy going to work bringing something to bring a comfort to that.
Sid: Now could it be that someone would be busy in religious things would bring them comfort rather than… I mean their motivation is to medicate themselves by doing religious things rather than motivation in doing the kingdom of God.
Craig: We hate to think so but unfortunately that is the case. I ran into numerous missionaries on the field that as the truth were known when you got down to the bottom line the reason they’re doing what they’re doing is because something on the inside feels worthless and their own flesh has risen up with using exactly that mechanism if I can just do enough for God, if I could just do enough in the Kingdom then I could be a valuable person.
Sid: What happened to that fellow that was in drugs and got miraculously set free and then was working in the church helping other drug addicts and then everything came back.
Craig: Yeah 12 years later intense temptation to drugs came back and what we discovered when we just asked the Lord “Where is that coming from, what’s that root again” again God showed him a horrific experience that he had in his own family as a 6 year old being homosexually raped by his brother with his other brother just standing by watching not helping him. The result of that was an intense deep emotional lie imparted on the inside “You’re worthless, you have no value you’re only here to be used and abused by other people.” The result of that his own flesh rose up and used drugs in teenage years to comfort pain of that. Every time he’d be disappointed, hurt, wounded, shamed, made to feel worthless by other people it would stimulate the intense pain on the inside and that deep deep emotional pain “Your worthless.” Well, as we prayed the Lord exposed that to him and when he remembered the experience there was an intense hatred that came up in his heart toward his brother. And we said “Lord what do you want to do with that?” And he had the most amazing experience where the Lord Jesus Himself lifted that hatred off of him and said “I died for that, that’s why I died you’re not to wear that, you’re not to carry that anymore.” And the Lord Himself ministered to that, removed that and then he asked the Lord a key question “Lord on that day when my brother did that to me the devil was able to impart to me the answer to a deep question ‘Who am I?’ And the devil’s answer was ‘You’re nobody, you’re nothing, your worthless.’” And he said “Lord today I want You to answer that question.” And you know Sid the Lord just ministered to him the most beautiful thing about who he was. He said “Son, whose who I see you to be, you’re a royal prince; I love you you’re my son, you weren’t created to be abused by other people you were created to be loved, to be valued and to bring life to other people.” And here’s the most amazing thing, after the Lord ministered that to him the temptation to drugs was instantly gone and it was maintenance free, it wasn’t something he had to struggle to try to not think about anymore it just literally was not there. And again the temptation to drugs was the smoke just an external, the fire was the intense experience that happened to him. The fuel was the deep seated lie “You’re worthless.” And I know that we’ll probably be out of time shortly but tomorrow I would like to talk more about what that fuel is in people’s hearts, how it gets there and what we actually practically do so that the Lord can remove that fuel deep in our hearts.
Sid: Well, that’s the key, what about someone that’s fearful of speaking in public could that be something, smoke as you call it?
Craig: Many times that’s smoke because we know that fear is not coming from God. “God did not give us a spirit of fear” the Bible said. So many times people struggle with all kinds of fears that are….
Sid: Ah, we’re out of time…
Sid: My guest by way of telephone at his office in Lynwood, Washington, the Head of the Centennial Group George Otis, Jr. Perhaps your familiar with his father his father started Middle East Television. He started TV and radio throughout the Middle East and radio throughout the world. George was raised in that environment and he had his own encounter with the Lord which in a very supernatural fashion. God has been directing him especially in the area of documenting where entire cities are impacted for the Lord. Not just a few churches on fire for the Lord, but entire cities… George I have to tell you most people, most believers feel that “That’s not going to happen until the millennium.” What would you say to them?
George: Well, the good news is that these examples that were documenting are places that they can visit. They just need to find a week of time or a few days time buy a plane ticket and they can actually go and walk the streets of these communities and see what community transformation looks like. It is a faith building experience more and more people are actually visiting some of the locations that we’ve highlighted. And the communities that we’ve highlighted on our videos represent only a fraction of the case studies that we’re presently aware of which are now somewhere in the vicinity of 170 to 180 different locations.
Sid: Okay you were listing yesterday reasons why here in the west we don’t experience what’s happening in other areas, and the one that I have to trigger of all of them is the one called lack of hunger. Why do we have a lack of hunger here in the west is it that we have too many toys?
George: Yes, that’s a big part of it Sid we… you know how sometimes people summarize the 10 Commandments down into the first two. We can summarize I think the obstacles the transformation down into 2 things external distractions and internal offenses. And if we can overcome those 2 problems then we will see in our midst the Lord working in the same measure that He’s working in many regions and nation’s cities today.
Sid: So what’s your scenario how is this going to be overcome; to have us become a 3rd world country that will sure do it.
George: That sometimes is what God will do and we need to see this sometimes as the grace and mercy of God. C.S. Lewis put it this way once he said “God’s love marshals me where I would go if I truly knew what I wanted.” So often we only think we know what we want it really isn’t what we want. And if God graciously sometimes highjacks the direction of our lives and our ministries and says “Listen, trust me I know where you would go if you truly knew what you wanted and I’m going to take you there.” And I think that what is happening today, in this country, that we are… we’re we’ve seen religious inertia become more valuable to us than genuine spiritual change. In other words if we’re active, if we’re just busy if things are happening all around us and there’s a lot of sound and energy and bodies we slip into this deception that were actually making progress. I’ll tell you how I would put it, I think that we are suffering from a form of deism. We in the west are more products of the enlightenment than we are in the book of Acts. We think that God got things all started He wound it all up and then He’s kind of left the scene for us to go ahead and figure out all of the fine print and details on our own. See you’ve got 100’s and 100’s of men and woman of western church today that are running like chickens with their head cut off trying to figure out what ought to be done rather than realizing God has an intense interest in the details and is about the details. So I think this issue of hunger requires us to get alone with God saying “God would you increase my appetite for those things that are proven to attract Your presence.”
Sid: Because you can’t work it up yourself… you know the hunger even comes from God.
George: That’s right it does and when we do that maybe it’s a hunger for unity or for holiness or for humility or for faith or for prayer or whatever it might be. It’s not that we have no appetite it’s that we have a bird like appetite. It’s like going into a restaurant after we had fellowship with the saints and we sit down to a meal and the waiter or waitress comes over and says “What can I bring you?” And we haven’t even cracked the menu so we send them away and then the 3rd time they come back we’re embarrassed because we still don’t know and we just say off handedly “You know just bring me a cup of coffee.” That’s the response in the western church to the Holy Spirit who wants to bring us so much more we settle on a cup of coffee and a spiritual caffeine buzz; it’s just not going to take us where we need to go and where we truly would go if we knew what God could do for us.
Sid: Well, for example whet their appetite if you will so that people would at least pray “God give me the desire for unity, give me the desire to pray with my brothers and sisters so I can see the same thing.” Tell me about one of the cities on your transformation video Cali, Columbia. When I think of Columbia I think of drugs.
George: Well, most people do and that the extent of the reputation that was generated several years ago in the city of Cali which became the epicenter of the global cocaine cartel. There were over 100,000 people in this city that were on the direct, not the indirect, payroll of the cocaine cartels. This was a multibillion dollar enterprise. And I’ve seen their compounds down there and unless you’ve seen it you just can’t believe it. They were small cities within the city within their own air strips helipads their own shopping malls, their own restaurants. These drug lords would go to a restaurant in a city find a place they liked and would hire the cook and bring him into their compounds to start these private little restaurants. They would have underground tunnels connecting up to 25 massive mansions. And that would be only one compound and there were multiple ones within the city. They owned the police, they owned the banks, they owned the sport franchises, they ran everything. And so you can imagine what life in this city would have been like and to make matters worse the Body of Christ was so disunified, disunited, that one person told me Ministerial Association in the city of Cali several years ago consisted of one box of files that nobody wanted. (Laughing) That’s where they were at. And so in the midst of all 15 people a day were being murdered it was a mess. A few believers got so desperate they cried out to God and they said “You know we have to move the church together to call out to God to repent because that’s our only hope.” So they called an event in the municipal stadium there and to their surprise nearly 25,000 people showed up for an all night prayer vigil and they asked…
Sid: But you know what? They were desperate.
George: They were.
Sid: And that’s what we were just talking, here in the west we’re not desperate!
George: That’s exactly right we… we’re under the mistaken assumption that like the church at Sardis, and like the church at Laodicea, that we are in real good shape. And you’ll remember that what the Lord said to the Church at Sardis “You have a reputation of being alive but in fact you are dead.” And then He goes on to say “Now strengthen that which remains.” And what He’s saying there is “Return first love, move away from program and back to presence.” Because only God is capable of doing the heavy lifting that is required to see the community transformed. I believe that human programming and human charisma are adequate to see church growth, but they’re inadequate to see community transformation. Only God can do the heavy lifting as I said to bring that about. In the city of Cali, Columbia when they gathered together to cry out to God they began to initially talk to God about the violence problems. And that very weekend there headlines blazoned “No homicides” for the first time and as long as anybody could remember…
Sid: Are you saying the weekend these 25,000 Christians gathered for prayer there were no homicides?
George: It was that very same weekend that they talked to God about that issue. The city newspaper “El Pais,” and this is a community of about 3 million people headlined “No Homicide.” There had never been in anybody’s memory a weekend where nobody had been murdered in this city…
Sid: Oh, they figured something out real fast. George we’re out of time today.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah, why? Well there’s so many people that talk about friendship evangelism and let’s wait until someone asks me about the Messiah. Well, let me tell you something my guest right now Hal Lindsey if he with his knowledge of end-time events and things happening so quickly that he does a world-wide television show that is on a 24 hour delay and he said “Sid it’s a too big a delay things are happening too rapidly.” Now on yesterday’s broadcast I’ll get a lot of people upset with me Hal if I don’t ask you the question. I wanted to know what you think of what is considered by the words of President Bush our good friend the nation Saudi Arabia.
Hal: I think that Saudi Arabia is probably one of the most dangerous of all of the nations in Islam. And the reason is because they have some of the most dedicated clerics to promote a radical form of Islamic fundamentalism. And it’s called Wahabism and you just look 15 of the 19 terrorist who struck the United States in the September 11, 2001 were Saudis. And you look at Al-Qaida; Al-Qaida the leadership is mostly composed of Saudis so they’re very very dangerous.
Sid: Now, in your video you happened to comment on what recently happened with President Bush when Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia visited him and he had some company; tell me about that.
Hal: Well, he had some Emmas with him that remained on the plane who had called for destruction of the United States. They were on the same plane with the Saudi Prince and one of them remained on the plane because is he’d have gotten off he would have gotten arrested. But these were some of the clerics of Islam from Saudi Arabia who have been the most prolific in their condemnation of the United States.
Sid: I’ve got a quote here by one of the men on the plane. “I am against America until this life ends until the Day of Judgment; I am against America even if the stones liquefy. My hatred of America if part of it was just contained in the universe the whole universe would collapse. America is the root of all evils, our good friends Saudi Arabia on the same plane they came in?
Hal: Yes, that is absolutely amazing but that is true. And this is why you know I love our President I believe he’s truly a believer but he is perhaps fatally flawed in his understanding of Islam. He stills keeps saying that Islam is a religion of peace; it is not! You know people say “Well, you know there are radicals that come out of Christianity just as there are radicals that come out of Islam.” This true but here’s the difference the more a person follows literally what the Bible says and the more he follows Jesus Christ the more he will be peaceful. But the more a person follows the Koran and follows the example of Mohammed the more he will become a terrorist.
Sid: You know Hal I’m concerned about the Trojan horse in America of these people that are involved in Islam. I heard recently that their latest strategy is to go to major American universities, offer them tremendous sums of money to build buildings on their campuses to make them schools of Islam. They then hire the whole faculty. And I’m told in many of the mosques in America that preaching this virulent brand of terrorism. Are you aware of these things that are going on right under our nose?
Hal: Oh, absolutely I follow them closely and they’re of great concern to me. You see the Saudi’s with a very very great assortment of money and they seek to buy their way in. And I believe that we just have to recognize that their goal is to convert the United States to Islam.
Sid: Are they succeeding in the United States, I know that their succeeding in the prisons.
Hal: Well, I have a cousin who is a chaplain in the prisons in Texas and Oklahoma and he said the greatest threat he sees is that they’re converting to Islam all kinds of prisoners that this almost a plague that their converting so many prisoners to Islam. And you know they bring with them the ferocity of their criminal life and it’s conducted into a sanctified form of hatred for America.
Sid: Okay, I understand how they’ve been successful in the prisons but how come what is the attraction of Islam to nations like Africa, places like Southeast Asia, Philippines, what is the attraction there of Islam?
Hal: Well, it has an enormous attraction particularly in Southeast Asia you know there’s a kind of a religious vacuum there and mankind has to have some kind of religion. They’re religious my nature and so it has had a tremendous appeal particularly Southeast Asia. For instance Indonesia is the most populous country of Islam in the world. And also it is the new foundation for Islam.
Sid: Well, tell me about…you state the Oklahoma bombings have direct ties to the Philippians, I haven’t heard that in the news!
Hal: This is something that I think is really being covered over deliberately because the perpetrators of that bombing in Oklahoma married a Philippine girl, he went back to the Philippians spent some time there with some of her relatives who are members of the radical violent Islamic group that are in the Philippines. So it’s believed that there’s a connection I know that World Net Daily has a book that they’re featuring that connects the dots on that.
Sid: Hm. Now you go into a lot of detail in your video “Evidence of the End Time” having to do with Africa. I mean I don’t understand why our news and our media are not making a big deal out of all of the non-Muslims that are being killed especially Christians by Muslims in Africa.
Hal: Yeah, this is something that is a travesty I mean you know we report all kinds of human injustices around the world but when it comes to the slaughter and the massacre of Christians by Muslims in the Africa it’s virtually glossed over. And I’ve heard one of the reasons is because it’s so dangerous correspondence don’t go there. But whatever the cause the spread of Islam in Africa is rampant.
Sid: I mean how large is Islam in Africa?
Hal: Well, and this is what is really amazing we talk about whose really responsible for sending slaves to the Americas and so forth. Well, it was the Muslims who would go in and conquer the African tribes and send them on these slave ships
Sid: I wasn’t aware of that.
Hal: Oh yeah it was Muslims that did that they were the worst slavers in history. And yet now these very ones that they used to prey about are being converted to Islam. And it’s a very decisive force in Africa. It’s one of the only really transnational organizing movements in all of Africa but its moving fast. And Ezekiel very definitely talks about the fact the descendants of Cush and Put would be a very big part of the force that launches the War of Armageddon.
Sid: And push and put…
Hal: But the black African’s and Put is the father of the North African people such as Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco and Mauritania; those are all descendants of this tribe called Put. So and it’s interesting that all of those are Muslim countries.
Sid: How about Russia? I mean we know in the Bible in the last days how does Russia network with Islam?
Hal: Well, Ezekiel chapter 38 and also Daniel Chapter 11 verse 40 – 45 indicates that it would be this great power to the north. In fact Ezekiel says that they are the people that are to the extreme north of Israel in the last days. Well there’s only one nation to the extreme north of Israel and that’s Russia. It says that they’re going to make a strategic mistake, God will cause them to do it and they will align themselves with these Muslim confederacy, all of the nations around Israel which are Muslim. And they will supply them with weapons and they will lead them in the last great attack against Israel. And it will be because of the enormous wealth and prestige of Israel that they attack. So this is why I say something dramatic has to happen to Israel soon to give them enormous wealth.
Sid: Okay what about a Palestinian State based on your study of scripture, what your intuitive sense, will there be a Palestinian State before it’s over?
Hal: I guess there could be but I am so against it that it’s hard for me to accept. I don’t know if there will be one but it is possible. But I do know this that a big point is made in Ezekiel 38 about the people of Israel making a covenant with this Roman leader the anti-Christ. And they will be able to live without walls and you know this is talking about conditions in the last days.
Sid: Well, of course they’re putting in the big wall right now.
Hal: Yeah, cities are no longer walled but they’re talking about putting a wall….
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time…