Jonathan: Are you serious? Shalom Mishpochah, Shalom family.
Sid: You can’t even pronounce Mishpochah right there’s no way that you could do that Jonathan. That’s my guest Jonathan Bernis and I’m Sid Roth and we’re actually having fun because when you know God you can have fun. But there’s times to be serious and there’s time to have fun. And we want to talk about a serious subject right now. The increase worldwide of anti-semitism. What’s the Biblical origin of anti-semitism Jonathan?
Jonathan: You know Sid I hear all the time that anti-semitism is a totally illogical viewpoint. It’s a totally illogical idea ideology and that simply wrong. Anti-Semitism is very logical, very logical. Let me tell you where anti-Semitism begins and I’ve been doing a lot of research on this. As a matter of fact I’m in the process of writing a book on it. Anti-Semitism origins are Genesis Chapter 3 verse 15. Again let me say that again Genesis 3 verse 15. Mishpochah you should jot this verse down because this is a key verse. And theological terms this verse is called the Pro to-un-galleon.
Sid: Oh e-vey I’m sorry you told me (Laughing)
Jonathan: O e -vey Sid never for get that the Proton-un-galleon.
Sid: Ha, ha I’ll never remember it but go ahead.
Jonathan: Very simply it means pre-gosple. This is the very first declaration of the gospel of God’s future redemption in the scriptures. Genesis 3:15 and you all know the story God has created the world, He has created man. He’s enacted what I call the principal of creation and delegation. He said to Adam “I have created everything, now I’ve delegating it to you; you can do anything you want basically as long as you obey me and don’t eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” And what happened, we all know what happened Adam disobeyed God and the world was catapulted into a state of sin. I mean we don’t comprehend Sid just how severe, how radical the change in the earth was when Adam and Eve sinned. I mean I could give you a long list but it was as very very radical change. And in that day man began to die. In Genesis 3:15 although there a curse that’s placed on both the serpent or Satan and the woman. There is also a declaration of redemption. And I’m going to read the verse in the NIV “And I will put enmity or division between you and the woman between your offspring and hersl he will crush your head and you will strike his heal.” Now it’s a little bit complicated if you haven’t looked at this before but basically what the Lord is saying is that the seed of the woman which is a very unusual statement Sid, that actually the declaration of the virgin birth. Because seed in scripture is carried through the man; it’s transmitted through the man an yet this is the seed of the woman which is the first prophecy of the virgin birth not Isaiah 7:14. And then it says “Her seed.” speaking of course of the Messiah the Yeshua, will crush the head of the serpent an in response the serpent will only bruise the heal of the Messiah. Which is exactly what happened at Calvary. Now why do I set all of this up in this verse? Because I believe that Anti-semitism is a direct response to this declaration of redemption. The Lord is saying to Satan and so Satan is very much aware of this that a day will come in the future when your head will be crushed by the seed of this woman. So this something that Satan has had if you will hanging over his head for how many thousand years? For 6,000 years or how many you date or far back you date Adam and Eve. What am I getting at? Well, the seed the seed of the woman which I call the seed promise is carried of course through Noah and through his descendants and you really don’t hear anything about it until Genesis 12. In Genesis 12 were introduced to a man name Abram. Later becomes Abraham and the Lord makes this incredible statement; He says I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you and through you. Or through Sid, it says in the Hebrew yous seed (or your offspring) all the nations of the earth, all the Goyim the nations of the earth will be blessed. What is that prophesying? It’s prophesying ultimately that through the loins of Abraham, through his seed will come the Redeemer of Genesis 3:15. Are you following me so far?
Sid: So far it makes lots of sense.
Jonathan: So far, so clear. So here’s the simplicity and the logic of anti-semitism. Satan the serpent if you will has a death sentence hanging over his head, that his head will be crushed by the seed of the woman. He then is very much aware of the calling and choseness of Abram and the promise that through his seed the world will be blessed ultimately through Messiah. And so he ultimately understands that this seed promise will be fulfilled through the children of Abram, later that’s through Issac and then Jacob and so on through the 12 children of Israel. Anti-Semitism is nothing more or less Sid than Satan trying to preserve himself. It’s an act of self preservation; because the logic is if I can destroy Abraham and his offspring then I can keep this Genesis 12:3 seed from ever fulfilling this prophecy.
Sid: Yes, I can see that before Jesus came but after He came how does it play out?
Jonathan: Oh Sid that’s the million dollar question, your a great student of the word. Let me just back up a little I’m going to get to that. How clearly it’s demonstrated in scripture. Well, I think it’s very clearly demonstrated because you have throughout the Old Testament attempt after attempt to destroy the Jewish people of course portrayed in Antiochus Epiphanes. Portrayed in the story of Esther, or Purim where a man named Haman a type of anti-Christ tries to destroy the Jewish people. And then ultimately this reaches a crescendo Sid where Herod reaches another type of anti-Christ summons the wise men of Israel and says “Tell me, where will this Messiah be born?” And they quote Micah 5:2 “He’ll be born in Bethlehem.” And so what does Herod do, he sends his troops to kill all male children under 2 years of age. That’s Satan himself trying to preserve himself in trying to keep the seed from being born. That is the Epitome or the climax of anti-semitism the ore-Messiah. So now to get to your question. We understand why Satan tried to destroy the Jewish people and preserve his life and keep Calvary from happening but he failed, right.
Jonathan: Praise God he failed.
Sid: For sure, but we’re going to run out of time if we don’t find out why.
Jonathan: The fact is that he failed, Jesus came He lived a sinless life; He made it though all of that temptation. On two occasions he sweated it out in the garden He said “Your will will be done.” He went freely as the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world at Calvary. Laid down His life for us, was laid in the tomb of a rich man. And praise God Sid He didn’t stay there; after 3 days and 3 nights the Bible tells us that the resurrection power of the Living God came into Him. And He rose from the dead and defeated Satan and his hordes and made a open show of them. Hallelujah! And so all principalities and rulers are under His feet and under our! That’s the great news, that is the gospel.
Sid: Let’s go to that million dollar question now?
Jonathan: Now why has Satan worked then in the last 2000 years to destroy the Jewish people. In fact Sid he’s worked harder in the last 2000 years than he did before Yeshua came. You have of course the Pogroms, you have the Spanish Inquisition; you have the Crusades and ultimately the Holocaust where 6 million Jewish people perished. All because of Satan’s effort to destroy the Jewish people. Well here’s the answer, Genesis 3:15 must not be fulfilled yet. I was taught that Genesis 3:15 was fulfilled with the death, burial, and resurrection of Messiah. Were you taught that?
Sid: Of course.
Jonathan: I was taught that but Sid I’ve come to believe and I really believe the Lord showed me this that that is not the case at all. The Genesis 3:15 will only be fulfilled when Jesus returns to this earth because there is an enemy that stills has to be defeated. And that enemy is death. Satan is still loose, he’s still affecting people’s lives. He’s still the prince and power of the air and ruler over this earth for those that don’t know the Lord. The Bible’s very clear about that and all you have to do is look around Sid and see that evil is really reaching a climax. We are returning to the days of Noah.
Sid: Okay, so if that hasn’t been fulfilled totally experientially yet then why is he so anti-Semitic?
Jonathan: Well, here’s the answer. Satan knew that Jesus had to come through the seed of Abraham. That the seed of the woman was connected to the seed of Abraham and his offspring. And so he said “If I destroy the Jewish people I keep the Messiah from coming.” Now this is what most…what Satan understands and most Christians don’t Sid, an everybody buckle you seat-belts and listen closely to this. What most Christians don’t know is that the Jewish people play as an important rule in the return of Christ as they did in the coming, the first coming of Christ. In other words it had to be through the seed of Abraham but Sid the restoration of Israel and the Jewish people must take place before Jesus returns. It’s the pivotal foundational event according to Roman’s 11:25. That the Jewish people..
Sid: You know that really makes a lot of sense to me Mishpochah, I never thought in those terms. But that whole one new man, the Jew and the Gentile becoming one and running that last lap as the anchorman. Boy I’ll tell you what that was worth just waiting for.
Sid: Now I have on the telephone a Russian Jewish couple that is red hot for Jesus, red hot for the Yeshua. Gennady and Svetlana I go back a long time. I remember meeting them I think that it was in Canada in a hotel room and we talked about I have a Messianic Congregation in Brooklyn, New York. And before we knew it the two of them were moving out there and they were pasturing a Russian Jewish Congregation. And who would have known Gennady that so many years later God would birth something with the two of you that would be in my opinion and I believe more important in God’s opinion historic. And I’m talking about we are doing right now in the land of Israel secular Russian radio no holds barred completely proclaiming the gospel to Russian Jews, and offering my book of the 10 Jewish testimonies. The one if you remember I got in a dream from God. God said “More Jewish people would come to know Him through this book than anything that I had ever done.” And we’re making this available free to Russian Jews in Israel that call. We are then plugging them into a Messianic Jewish Congregation in Israel. Gennady it’s almost outrageous that you’re able to reach so many Jewish people in Israel on secular radio!
Gennady: Well to me it’s an amazing situation at the moment. I’ve been in the ministry for about 13 years and I…
Sid: Oh, it’s your bar mitzvah year!
Gennady: Yeah yeah that right. (Laughing) And you know God’s ways are not our ways and when He opens the door He knows what He’s doing. I believe we’re living in the last days and that’s why God’s opening wide doors. Especially for the Russian Jews that are moving out of Russia the formally Soviet Union. And Israel and actually Germany and Europe they’re filled with Russian Jews. Even Montreal where I live it’s over 60,000 population in one city of the Russian speaking people.
Sid: Well, this is beginning and we are looking into getting the broadcast that Gennady and his wife Svetlana are doing in Israel. We already have it now in Berlin, Germany, and this is secular radio and for Russians. And the Russians as Gennady said are the most open Jewish people group on the face of this earth. In fact Gennady many years ago I read a book by a friend of mine his name was Steve Lightle and the name of the book was called “Exodus II.” Did you ever read that?
Gennady: Yes, yeah I read that book before yeah.
Sid: Okay, and I bumped into Steve a few years ago and I said “Steve in your book you prophesied the Iron Curtain’s going to come down, there is going to be major revival in Russia.” And this was before this happened the book was written many years ago. And you were right, but what you described the revival was the most miracles that you would ever seen. I mean people without limbs would get their limbs back. Every miracle that you read in the Bible and then as Jesus said “You’ll do the same works that I’ve done and even greater.” I don’t think that that’s happened yet in the former Soviet Union. And he said “Absolutely not.” So what I believe Gennady is what we are doing is the beginning of this great move of God’s Spirit on Russian Jews.
Gennady: Sid about a year ago when this started our television program across Canada and God spoke to me and He said “The Jewish people are still looking for a sign.” And when I heard this from God I said “This is marvelous it means that the gospel that you preach to the Jewish people today will follow signs and wonders will follow the gospel.” And that’s what I’m standing upon.
Sid: Listen, not only does God say the Jew requires a sign.
Sid: And how have we been reaching, let’s be candid Gennady, how have most of us been reaching Jewish people over the years. Unfortunately, the same way that we’ve been reaching Gentiles over the years and that’s through the brain, through apologetics, through the cerebral area. Billy Graham himself said himself that better of 90% of the people that come forward in one on his campaigns never in a church a year later. Something’s wrong, we’re using a humanistic approach to the gospel and it’s about time we use God’s approach which has always been and He said “I change not,” supernatural.
Gennady: Sid I believe in the Talmudim Apostles they were walking in in the Book of Acts. Actually I call it a book of Action (Laughing) and when I see, when I look into the examples of this people I saw “Lord, use me the same way.” And I feel that it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen and this is the word of God and that’s what it is and God will perform His word.
Sid: Well, I believe Gennady it’s going to be contagious. Large numbers of Jewish people are going to come to know the Lord according to Paul in Romans the 11th chapter the 25 verse it talks about a mystery. It says “For I do not want you brethren to be uninformed of a mystery so that you’ll not be wise in your own estimation.” In other words there is a mystery but that mystery should be revealed to His children and it is right now. And here’s what the mystery is “That a partial hardening has happened to Israel.” What does that mean? That means that most Jewish people have a hardness over us that we’re blind to the gospel, but it’s like spiritual scales. But there are some Jewish people that have broken through not because of us but because of God’s mercy, I’m one of them Gennady is one of them, his wife Svetlana is one of them. And it says this is going to happen when another event occurs. The event that he describes is “When the fullness of the Gentles has come in.” Then you’re going to see the spiritual scales come off of the eyes of the Jewish people. And I proclaim right now that the spiritual scales are coming off of Jewish people therefore it means we are at the fullness of the gentle age. Now it gets better than that; in the past we’ve taken these Jewish believers and put them in boxes called Messianic Jewish Congregations rather than boxes called Gentile Churches. And that was a starting point because God wanted church to get back its Jewish roots and understand that it is of God and it always will be of God. But there’s something better coming it’s called the One New Man and as these Jewish people get saved can you picture 100′s of Paul the Apostles being raised up from these Russian Jews. Maybe some of those 144,000 we read about in the book of revelation. Then this new life if you will comes into the church, the middle wall of separation comes down between Jew and Gentile we became One New Man as Paul said “The true body of Messiah.” And the miracles that were used to reach the Jew it becomes contagious; they jump on the Gentile believers but when the two come together the Jew and Gentile come together and form the complete body of Messiah, the glorious Church comes on the scene and devil watch out. And come quickly Lord Jesus. Gennady is that good preaching?
Gennady: Excellent! Sid I’m just listening and I’m enjoying it. (Laughing)
Sid: Okay, I believe that our Mishpochah must understand the Russian Jew and who better than a Russian Jewish red-hot fiery evangelist and his wife. Gennady you were raised as an atheist and what was life like, and what city was that you were born in?
Gennady: I was born in a small town of Slutz in Belarus and it’s about 60 miles south of Minsk which is the Capital of Belarus. Into a Jewish family we had; actually my parents they told me before the second World War that our city had population of about 80% of just Jewish people. About 20% of the Gentles but after the second World War a lot of Jewish people died. Any way the city where I lived and my wife as well it was quite a Jewish city. Yeah, and in any case we were atheist because we were surrounded by the atheistic society we could not practice anything. The only way that we knew were Jews was by you know by traditions in the family. Parents told us that we were Jews and we knew that we were special and we had a little community on our own and also persecution. We knew. Anywhere you go they would call you names.
Sid: Now did you know, now let me ask you some basics. Did you know the basic Biblical holiday? Did you know about Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Shavuot, Sukkot?
Gennady: No, no, never. I heard something about Passover but that was it.
Sid: What about the Shabbat, the Sabbath?
Gennady: Never celebrate it. Never had an interest in anything like that because no one in my family celebrated Shabbat at all.
Sid: Okay, what about God?
Gennady: No, no absolutely not; I was not a believer I did not believe that God is existed and neither anybody in my family. It was just pure… if it was something concerning Judaism it was purely traditional approach and very very little, that was it. I grew up that way; and you know my interest was in music a lot when I was little and when I finished school my desire was to become a musician, I did.
Sid: What was your instrument?
Gennady: Well my major is drums yeah. But I play a lot of different instruments.
Sid: And so you wanted to be a sup… did you know about the Beatles?
Gennady: Sure, I was crazy about Beatles, and actually Rolling Stones, and The Purple, and Zeppelin these groups that I use to listen in my days in Russia and I paid a lot of money for the records. (Laughing)
Sid: So you knew about the Beatles but you didn’t know about Judaism. Okay, hold that thought we’ll be back on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: As a matter of fact, my prayer is that this week you will have what my guest and her dad calls stubborn faith. Because I don’t think there’s any other kind. Let me repeat it stubborn faith. My gust is Zona Hayes-Morrow daughter of Norvel Hayes. I have to tell you Zona I just read you new book, and although I’ve understood faith teaching for almost as long as I’ve been a believer 40 some years; there is something that comes off the pages of your testimony. You must drive the devil mashuga, mashuga is a Hebrew word it means crazy; I bet you really do.
Zona: That is exactly what my goal is every day of my life is when my feet hit the floor for the devil to be on alert that Zona is up. (Laughing)
Sid: What I don’t understand is why… I mean the average person has faced death in some way or another in a lifetime, but why have you faced death 13 times?
Zona: Well, I would say that the Lord knew; I would say in my past that the Lord knew that my dad was going to be a prominent one of God’s generals. He knew the future; I didn’t know the future, my dad didn’t know the future. But I believe and the Lord says in His word that the children will do greater works than the father and the devil knows that I’m not afraid of him. I’ve been raised around all sorts of situation; nothing surprises me; I’ve seen limbs grow out; I’ve see people healed of cancer; I’ve seen demons manifest themselves, and people from homosexuals to demon possessed; to witchcraft to people that were having sex with the devil to nothing surprises me. And the Lord knows and the devil knows that nothing makes me flinch.
Sid: Well, I have to tell you we are going to help so many people; I personally can tell you having read your brand new book “Get a Grip What to do at the End of Your Rope” that literally that stubborn faith jumped off the pages on me. I needed that; I think everyone listening to us needs that. And the thing that was so amazing to me and in addition to your new book we have a 3 CD set called “Overcoming Faith.” You did this in the midst of a fight stating what you were believing God for. Here’s the difference most people say believe and they give a little teaching but you go step by step of how you walked and how you got your victory. Very few people understand this and in other words it’s one thing to teach as a college professor; it’s another thing to teach by what you have lived; big difference.
Zona: Oh yes, yes that’s exactly right, but I’ve been raised in a house that believing that can do anything.
Sid: But you know what you told me before you went on the air, which I’ve got to have you tell the people is… Now I remember that your father used to teach a lot on the deliverance ministry; and I had heard a story that your daughter lines up her dolls and when she was a baby and was casting demons out of the dolls. Did she really do that?
Zona: Oh yes, she would line up her Barbie dolls and she would lay her hands on them and she would be like it was the cutest little thing she would be like 3 or 4 years old and she would go “Come out.” (Laughing)
Zona: But you know the Lord used my daughter Leigh when she was just a childlike 3 or 4 years old; my dad would bring her up to the altar. And one church in particular was in Jacksonville, Florida at Wally and Gina Thomason’s church and she would say “Papa that little girl needs for you to pray for her.” Well, there was a little girl out there in the congregation; in the middle of the auditorium a little girl about 8 years old. And my dad went to where Leigh told him to go and he got the little girl in the aisle and she said “Her ear.” And this was the Lord using my daughter in her early years and it was just a word of knowledge. My dad started praying for her ear and the next night they brought what looked like a little piece of charcoal. That night the Lord operated on that little girl’s ear. She had an eardrum that was dead and the Lord put a brand new eardrum in her ear and the old eardrum was on her pillow and they brought it to the service the next night. So God he’s used my dad and now he’s using me and any greater works that I do that is what my daughter’s going to do. Do you see what I’m saying?
Sid: Well, that’s the way that it’s supposed to be but I have to tell you most PK’s, that’s known as Pastors kids. They have their rebellion, but when they come back they come back with a vengeance and you’re no different than most PK’s. Your dad was raise Baptist, your parents separated and then divorced; he raised you but he was running like 12 million dollar corporations at one time and running all over the country for Full Gospel Businessmen’s and other groups speaking in those early days. And you were shuttled from Aunt to Aunt and as a matter of fact tell me that time that your dad would take you out to a bad area town where people needed food excreta and he would distribute food to the hungry. But you had a tough time with that; why?
Zona: Well, I always wanted to be accepted you know my mother left when I was 8 ½ and I never saw her again after I was 10. So I lived with my Aunts for a few years but then my dad would always come and get me and this was about 12 when I started going to Brother Little-field here in town-church and he was the one who fed the poor. Well, then I got in high school and you know and dad drove the big Cadillac and I was known as the rich kid and it was embarrassing for me for him to go to the city dump in the big Cadillac and for me to sit in the car with and then get out in front of a poor person’s home and they’ll be children with dirty clothes on. One little baby she was so dirty her diaper stuck to her skin. And they had no food and the little baby walked up to my dad and said “Mr. do you have any milk?” And the Lord spoke to him and said “What are you going to do about it?” And then my dad said in disparity he said “I guess I’m going to go get milk.” Thank exactly what I told you to do; I’ve called you to serve before you speak.” If you can’t learn to be my servant then you’ll never last in ministry. And so I went with him to the grocery store I was just embarrassed it was a time where a teenager wants to be cool at the school and they might see you at the city dump and they make fun. It’s just society, society needs to have a revelation of what God’s love is.
Sid: You know as a teen you also had an interesting challenge and I can picture as a teen not being very happy over this you had 42 growths all over your body. So what did you do you go to the doctor; you have them cutoff and then the growths they just grow right back up. And after doing this a few times your father says “Enough is enough.” And he says “You’re not going back to the doctor” so you’re walking around with these 42 growths that had to be horrible for you.
Zona: Oh it was horrible and the thing is the growth started out small and then when I’d get them cut off by the doctor they’d grow back and bring their cousins with them; I mean they’d bring more growths. And so at the end when he decided that he was not going to take me back to the doctor there wound up being 42 growths on my body large growths,
Sid: But as a teenager that had to be very embarrassing to you.
Zona: Oh, very embarrassing, and so Brother Hagin had come into town…
Sid: By the way here’s what’s so neat some of these giants, these generals she was raised with them Kenneth Hagin; John Osteen, Lester Sumerall. So Kenneth Hagin sees these growths and what does he say?
Zona: Well, he had come into town that day and my dad wasn’t in from work and so Brother Hagen was visiting with a hairdresser and her husband that lived across the street from me and my dad and she did sister Hagin’s hair when she was in Cleveland. And so when I walked in from school and he went “Hey Zona” I said “Hey Brother Hagen.” He said “How are you doing?” I said “I’m not doing too good.” And he said “What do you mean you’re not” and he turned around in his chair and he said “What do you mean you’re not doing too good?” I said “I got dad problems.” And he said “What do you mean you got dad problems?” I said “Well, you see these growths on my hands and my arms and my legs; I’ve been trying to get my dad to take me back to the doctor and have them cut off but he won’t do it.” And then about that time my dad walks in; and of course they greet each other and hug each other because they were like brothers. And he said “Narvel” he always called him Narvel. And he said “I hear that Zona’s got dad problems.” Well my dad cut his eyes over at me and I just looked at him and I just shrugged my shoulders. And he said “What do you mean you’ve got dad problems Zona?” And I said “Well, I’ve been trying to get you to take me to the doctor to get these growth cut off.” And I said “You won’t do it.” He said “Brother Hagen,” and he said Narvel,” He said “Don’t worry about it I can curse those growths at the root and command them to disappear.” And my dad to himself went “Well, I’ve been trying to believe God for 4 years and laddie tat-ta.”
Zona: That’s what my dad thought and he said “I’m going to ask brother Hagin what he does to do that, because he had that in his ministry where he’d curse growths and they would disappear.
Sid: I remember cancer couldn’t stand around him.
Sid: Look we’re out of time right now.
Sid: What happens to a nice Jewish couple in New Jersey where the husband’s in the diamond industry working with Chasidic and Orthodox Jews. He’s Vice President on the diamond exchange 6 figure income and he has an encounter with Jesus. And then his wife has an encounter with Jesus; she’s what we affectionately call in the Jewish community a JAP, a Jewish America Princess. But they had a deniable encounter with the Lord and Bonnie there was a turning point in your life even after that occurred. When the two of you went to visit my friends in a church in Toronto? What happened to you and your husband?
Bonnie: We had gone to visit an outpouring we were told of God in Toronto where the Spirit of the Lord had just had visited a place and people were being healed right in front of us. People were finding Messiah; people were having dreams and visions. It was just an entire encounter with the Spirit of God; things that we can read in scripture were coming to life. They were actually happening and they happened to us as well.
Sid: Now tell me what you observed with your very eyes that happened to your husband there.
Bonnie: Oh my (Laughing) well I experienced my husband king of being nailed to the floor under the power of God, and experiencing the presence of God stronger than ever. My husband was just crawling around; crawling on the floor; and was on the floor of an elevator and nailed just sitting there. Crazy things that just seemed to be crazy at the time which later on which we came to understand where the power of God invades the body the body the body is very weak and feeble and just does not stand up and act it’s normal self. And it was a few days of that and again knowing I was married to a very sane man; we knew that it was just an encounter with the power of God.
Sid: Would you put your husband Felix on I want to ask him what come about this. Felix has a nice job a 6 figure job and Vice President on the Diamond Exchange. But after this occurred for 6 months what was going on with you Felix?
Felix: Sid I was manifesting on the streets of New York City (Laughing) it was just an incredible…
Sid: You mean by manifesting is the glory of God would come on you and you know what some of you may be laughing right now. But you cannot stand when the glory of God comes on you; the Hebrew word for glory is Kavod which means a heaviness. And when the Kavod of God comes on me I can’t stand up; how about you Felix?
Felix: It was the same way I would be going from an appointment to another appointment and as soon as I just began to come into the presence of God this thing began to overcome my physical being and I became completely incapacitated. I remember when my first journey to Toronto I came from rather conservative roots; I’ve always been rather a conservative person. And we came back from one of the meetings and I want to tell you I literally crawled from the front door of the hotel on my hands and knees through the lobby.
Sid: Now you are a Vice President of a large diamond company you’re not supposed to be doing this Felix you know that.
Felix: Yes (Laughing) but it’s just you know an amazing amazing time; I have no explanation other than looking back; the Lord was getting us ready to take a traumatic supernatural step of faith out of a very solid career. Keep in mind that I’m in my mid 40′s, kids in college, we have a home, I have a wife and God was getting us ready to take one incredible dramatic move. I believe that the level of revival that hit our lives was all in preparation for the ministry to the Jewish people.
Sid: Paint me a picture of what is shortly going to happen in the New York metropolitan area; no not just the New York Metropolitan area throughout the world in reference to Jewish people.
Felix: I believe that we are in an hour where God’s arm of salivation He literally is bringing forth his voice. Jewish people are having divine encounters with God because of the hour that we are in.
Sid: Last month you invited me to a series of meetings at your congregation and there were a number of Jewish people there that didn’t know Messiah that came forward.
Felix: Correct we had 6 or 7 people come to faith in Messiah, some of them were Jewish. What was it? Well, in their heart they are already seeking more of the supernatural they’re seeking for God, but there is something in the presence of God, the power of God, that draws His people to them. And that’s what’s happening all over the earth; not only that I believe that we’re in a day that God’s restoring the church. And restoring the hearts of the fathers to the children giving them an understanding of the Hebraic roots and the very purpose of the church in terms of stewarding the end time harvest of Jewish souls to Messiah.
Sid: You know when I first became a Jewish Believer in Messiah in the 70′s in the early 70′s there literally was a move of God’s Spirit. I’m seeing people getting healed right now in their mouth, their teeth are being healed; their gums are being healed. And pain of all kinds especially in the back and neck and hip; pains of all kinds are disappearing. But in the early 70′s Felix when I became a believer there was a wave if you will of God’s Spirit on young people it was called the Jesus Movement. And there were a number of young Jewish people like myself that were swept into the Kingdom. I believe that what you’re saying is history is about ready to repeat.
Felix: Absolutely, absolutely God is getting ready for a move of God; the Spirit of God is coming upon the earth and it is indicative of the soon return of Yeshua. And there is a hunger and longing in the heart of God’s people throughout the earth, throughout the entire earth. Not only just New York City which is a strategic center and political in every way; but God is moving across the entire earth amongst His people powerfully.
Sid: Tell me about your congregation, Beth Chofesh, which means Beth which means House and Chofesh means freedom. Now Bonnie explained yesterday that you were given the name of the congregation supernaturally and you didn’t like it because you thought it was too complicated for people to pronounce. But God made it very clear that that’s the name of your congregation; what’s the objective of your congregation?
Felix: Well, the Bible says “Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom” I believe in 2nd Corinthians chapter 3. And that had always from the very beginning been central to our hearts. You know when we look at Jewish people coming to the Messiah, to me once the Jewish people come to the Messiah they need to come into a relationship; a supernatural relationship with the Holy Spirit. And to allow gifts to operate in their lives because I believe that is what God had intended. And as I looked around not; by any design, not by any conscious effort I realized that there was no places houses of freedom that were “Messianic” in nature. Where the Jewish people could not only come in and retain their Jewish distinction but also experience and to operate in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. So what we see often is we see Jewish people who come to faith, Jewish and non-Jewish we’re a One New Man congregation. This is what is in the center of our heart; I believe both Jew and Gentile are one in Messiah and both of them come into that unity. The Gentile has an opportunity to come into that context to receive the fullness of their inheritance and also to be used fully to a light to the Jewish people. But Beth Chofesh is a place where we say “Lord operate, move and have Your being in this place.” And that is why I believe the Lord has the freedom to operate; we see supernatural things, we see gifts of healing; we continually see the supernatural nature of who God is.
Sid: What are we going to see? I know what we’re seeing right now but I believe that just as we’re going to see an outpouring of God’s Spirit on all people and many Jewish people are going to be swept into the Kingdom. I see an increase in the supernatural and I saw something when I was at your congregation; I saw that you weren’t afraid to pray for hard cases, I don’t mean headaches I mean people that had to have creative miracles. You seem pretty bold in your faith Felix.
Felix: I believe that we have to become a people who believe in the impossible because we serve a God who makes all things possible. I believe that in no way can we limit our faith. Not that a healing for a headache or any other type of ailment even a cancer or whatever it may be but when we see patients, we see people who need a re-creative miracle whether its Spina bifida or any dramatic and drastic condition where a re-creative miracle is needed. God is the God of the impossible; He’s not limited by those things.
Sid: Felix but we are limited by time right now so we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: There is a key, a prayer if you will, that will release blessings in your life beyond anything you ever thought. I have on the telephone from Lancaster, England Peter Horrobin. Peter I have to believe that this is one of the major keys to physical healing; one of the major keys for removing obstacles and barriers between someone and God this most powerful prayer which is a prayer of forgiveness. But we were talking on yesterday’s broadcast about a most important area and that is what about someone that is in an ongoing situation where they’re being verbally abused. How in the world? I mean yes they have to keep forgiving but enough is enough. If you would talk a little bit about this from what you said yesterday and then continue the thought.
Peter: Well, I really feel sorry for people that are in that situation it’s not just sorrow it’s actually a huge amount of compassion because it’s not an uncommon problem. There’s false teaching I believe in the church which says that you just got to keep on forgiving and being a doormat for everybody else. I believe that they’re actually comes a time when one has to rise up in righteous anger; the scripture says “Be angry and sin not” and to actually put up a barrier and say “I forgive you for what you’re doing but I’m not going to allow you to do it anymore.” And sometimes there are consequences of that and of those decisions but it takes that sort of godly resistance to actually bring people to a place of realizing what they’re doing. This often happens inside families where you’ve got maybe a mother, or a mother-in-law, or a brother-in-law, husband and wife, or children and they’ve just taken advantage of people and speak out horrible things day in and day out and they crush people’s spirits. When our spirits are crushed we are really broken on the inside. Now there is a huge amount of healing that God wants to do for the crushed spirit but to forgive and to keep on forgiving is the entry point to that. I don’t think I can go into individual situations.
Sid: You know in your book, I just happen to have a phrase that jumped out at me you said “Even if we forgive someone it doesn’t mean that we trust them; trust has to be earned.”
Peter: Absolutely, forgiveness and trust they’re not the same thing; let me tell you a tragic but not an uncommon story that in a local church where a Sunday School Teacher was found abusing one of the little girls in the Sunday School. And he was brought to the Minister of the Church with the parents and they forgave him and they had misunderstood this whole issue. They felt that because they’d forgiven they had to actually give this man his job back.
Peter: So they forgave him, put him back in the Sunday School and he abused more children. You see forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. Forgiveness it deals with our heart; today I actually have to deal with our own heart and you can’t trust somebody who’s not trustworthy. Jesus Himself didn’t trust himself to people; He was very careful in John 2 verse 24 & 25 it says “He knew what was in people’s hearts therefore he didn’t trust Himself to them.” He’s very forgiving but there’s a huge difference between forgiving and trusting yourself to people. And so we need to separate that out and not to let people feel that they have to trust people whom they have forgiven. Somebody might earn that trust and become trustworthy, but it’s not necessarily the case. In Jeremiah 12 verse 6 it says “Your brothers, your own family even they have betrayed you; they’ve raised a loud cry against you do not trust them even though they may even speak well of you.” See scriptures are very helpful isn’t it in this respect.
Sid: Yes Peter I have to think the biggy for a lot of people involves parents; tell me a little bit about forgiving parents.
Peter: I’ll tell you a story, Karen stood in one of my healing services and she was asking for prayer. She had a kidney problem and the doctors have said “You got a viral condition on both kidneys and there is nothing we can do for you.” And they actually said “You have less than 12 months to live. When she stood before me asking for prayer I was saying “God I don’t know what to pray here I have a heart full of compassion but what do I pray?” And God spoke it right into my spirit and said “Ask her about her mother?” And so I asked Karen about her mother and she said “I don’t know anything about my mother.” She was “16 she got pregnant and I was given away for adoption.” And I spoke to her and I just said “Do you realize that before you were conceived in sexual sin?” And she laughed and said “I never thought about it that way before.” But she said “Yeah, that’s true and I said “Have you ever forgiven your parents for sexual sin?” She said “No, I never even thought about it.” And I said “Have you ever thanked God that you weren’t aborted?” She said “No.” So I want you to do these two things and she did; she spoke out from her heart thanking God for her life and forgave her mother and her father for their sexual sin. As she prayed that prayer something happened on the inside she felt something break in her tummy where she was joined to her mom and as I prayed there was a spirit of cursing that was upon her because the sexual sin of a parents the spirit of infirmity began to leave her and she was delivered of that spirit. Actually that wasn’t the healing, the healing followed immediately afterward like with the woman in Luke 13 when Jesus delivered her of the spirit of infirmity, then He laid His hands on her that she may be physically healed. And I asked another lady member of our team to lay hands on Karen’s kidneys and she prayed there in tongues for 20 minutes asking God to just bring healing. And 20 minutes later all the swelling and the kidney’s had gone down, Karen was able to bend over and to touch her toes which she could never had done before for the pain was so great. She wrote to me 6 weeks later and she said “She’d been back to the hospital, the doctors had said they could find no evidence of the viral condition and to forget what they said last time; they told her “You’re okay there’s nothing wrong.” Now the healing was released in her when she forgave her parents for what they had done.
Sid: What about people that their parents have a particular disease and they have the same let’s take something that’s quite common in our culture arthritis.
Peter: Oh yeah, yeah.
Sid: Give me an example.
Peter: Well, arthritis is something that even the medic’s say that there are certain percentage of the people that have arthritis who themselves are bitter. So people who are not the nicest and the most pleasant of characters let’s put it this way.
Sid: Now that’s not true for all.
Peter: It’s not true for all
Peter: Though there are some who are like that and there is a relinking of the attitude of the heart and the physical condition. Now there are other forms of arthritis that actually seem to come down the generational line. One generation after another after another has a similar sort of problem. There was a lady who asked me for prayer and she had 3 years of degenerative arthritic condition. Her gifting before God was to actually dance and she used to…
Sid: Well, you can see why the devil wanted that curse passed on.
Peter: Well, she wanted to worship the Lord in dance and she couldn’t because of the arthritis. And I said to her “How long have you had this? And she said 3 years. I said “Did your mother have something like this?” And she said “Yes, my mother was crippled with arthritis. And I said “How long did your mother die? She said “Three years ago.” It was a direct correlation.
Peter: Acts Chapter 20 and verse 5 says “The sins of the fathers visit on the children to the third and the fourth generation. And this is a reality that we see sometimes in our working and what has happened in one generation after another and we can break that. In the Name of Jesus we can ask God to just cut that generation line; and that’s what they did she forgave her ancestors for everything they have done, whatever it was.
Sid: In other words you can forgive even though you don’t know what the specific sin they committed was.
Peter: Nehemiah prays a very interesting prayer, he confessed that “I and my ancestors we have sinned.” It’s not a case of forgiving for something specific but it’s a confession… the word confess actually means “I agree with.” I agree that my ancestors have sinned and done ungodly things and I forgive them and I release them into the freedom of my forgiveness. And then we can pray “God will you now cut that chain with Your authority you’ve given us in Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit Lord will you cut that chain.” And there’s many, many people who have got things that have come down the generation line and they need to just say “God my ancestors have sinned, I agree with that.”
Sid: Now this lady who had arthritis just out of curiosity did you see her dance?
Peter: Oh, I did twenty minutes later she was up at the front of our meeting hall and she was dancing and she was worshiping the Lord because the arthritis had been healed.
Sid: That fast!
Peter: That fast, in her case that fast; but sometimes it’s not that fast but in her case that’s exactly what happened.
Sid: So what do you recommend someone does that they have forgiven someone because they know they’re required to by the Bible but there’s a bit deception and every time that person name comes up there is a bad feeling inside.
Peter: It’s not necessarily a bit of deception, see there are layers of pain and just like an onion has many layers and we can have layers of pain. And we can forgive; you see the first act of forgiveness is…..
Sid: So would you call it a process?
Peter: I’d say there’s definitely a process without a doubt because it begins with a choice and let me say this it’s not just a choice because the Bible tells us to. Because the Bible can tell you lots of things and you do them with a bad heart and doesn’t do a slightest bit of difference. We’ve actually got to come to the point that actually in my heart I choose to forgive. I thank God that He chooses to want to forgive me. The story of the prodigal son for example where the father’s arms are wide open, and we actually go to get to that point and saying “God actually I want to forgive.” And it’s not just because I’m being told to do it; because I want to do it and at that point we can actually begin our process. And the process can take quite a while because I have a picture that I use to help people understand here. If you have a bucket of sand and you have a teaspoon and you take out a teaspoonful of sand it doesn’t look as though there is much gone out of the bucket. But you keep on taking a teaspoon out of the bucket and gradually the level of the sand goes down. And you get to the end where there is actually no more sand in the bucket and there is no more pain. And we need to keep on forgiving until the pain is gone.
Sid: Peter, we’re out of time.
SID: Hello. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. I love the rarified air of Heaven. You know what identity theft is. But I want to tell you about the original identity theft. As a matter of fact, this person was put in the witness protection program against his will for 2000 years. His name, Yeshua in Hebrew, Jesus in English, and my guess says, it’s time to bring Jesus, the one called the King of the Jews, out of the witness protection program. So you’re a young college student. You’re into drugs. Your major purpose is fun. You’re Jewish identity, but not too religious, and your best friend becomes a Jesus freak. Ron, how did that affect you, your friendship?
RON: It about ruined my friendship when my best friend Brian came to me and told me that he now is a born again believer in Jesus.
SID: Now the word “born again”, it meant what to you?
RON: It meant freak. It meant crazy. It meant religious nut. And there was a dramatic change in his life. He began to share the Good News with me. And I said, “Brian, I’m Jewish and if there’s one thing I know about being Jewish, we don’t believe in Jesus, or at least that’s what I was taught.” Well Brian was very persistent, and one day he told me, I actually asked him, I said, “Brian, are you actually telling me that if I’m not born again like you,” I didn’t even know what that meant, Sid.
SID: I know you didn’t. You know how I know you didn’t know? I’m Jewish, too.
RON: So I said, “Are you saying I have to be born again to go into Heaven?” I didn’t believe in Heaven. I didn’t believe, I thought maybe there’s a God. But I certainly didn’t know him. And Brian looked at me and he said, “Ron, yes, you must be born again.” And when he said that I knew it was the truth. I don’t know how I knew it was the truth, but it scared me half to death. And I said, “Brian,” I said, “There is nothing in the Bible about being born again.” Which is really funny, because I had never read, not only the New Testament, I never read the Old Testament. And I said, “There’s nothing in the Bible about being born again.” He opens up the New Covenant to John, Chapter 3 where Yeshua says, “Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” And it was like swords coming out of Heaven. I was just, I didn’t know what to do.
SID: But he wanted to be right with God, if there is a God. And so he didn’t know what to do. So he’s in college and one day another friend who’s a Christian takes him to a Christian movie. What happened?
RON: Well this fellow Dean found out that I was a believer. We had a conversation a few days before about Yeshua, about Jesus, and as we’re talking, I suddenly felt the presence of God. I didn’t know what it was. I had never felt it, but there was just an incredible supernatural peace. Well he says, “Ron, I want to take you to a movie about Jesus.” Two days later, we went to the movie in Durham, North Carolina, and at the end of the movie, we’re both crying. I mean, it was a, as far as movies go, I’m all for a movie, but it was a movie. I wasn’t going to become born again because of a movie. We get in the car, we’re driving home and nobody is talking. And we get about a half hour back, it’s an hour drive. We’re a half hour back to school. And I said, “God, I have to know the truth. Is Jesus the Messiah or do I need to become an orthodox Jew or a Buddhist? Just show me how to serve you and I’ll do it.” And the next thing I remember is Dean loses control of the car. It begins to swerve from side to side, flips over upside down in a ditch.
SID: My goodness. Was it totaled?
RON: The car was totaled?
SID: Were you totaled?
RON: Not a scratch on either one of us. And that was my first prayer. That’s when I realized that prayer is power. And we got out of the car, we went to, there was only one house within miles. We knock on the door. And lo and behold, two wonderful believers in Yeshua, Jesus, answer the door, and next thing you know I’m sitting in their living room and I’m asking them about Yeshua. I said, “If Jesus was the Messiah, why didn’t he get off the cross and just prove it to everyone?” And you see, all I knew up until that point is that I needed to be born again, but I didn’t know why. They explained to me about sin, that I was a sinner, that Yeshua came to die for me, that he could have easily gotten off the cross, but he chose to die as a sacrifice for me, and that through faith in him I could have eternal life. Well I didn’t understand anything with their blood, sacrifice, lambs, except for the fact that the power and presence of God was falling on top of me. And when I say, Sid—
SID: Wait a second. You told me that you were into drugs in college. So weren’t you on a drug trip that was like that?
RON: That was my first thought. I said, did I take anything today, and I hadn’t. And I wasn’t a drug addict. I was a drug user. And but this power was, there are no words in English. At the time, I thought this is a force field of electricity coming off of me about a foot in every direction. And I finally stopped and I said, “What is this?” And she said, “What is what?” And I said, “What is this power I’m feeling?” And I believed. I was born again. I walked out of that house a new creature, went back to school. Everyone wanted to know about the car accident. I said, “No, I have to tell you about Jesus.”
SID: You mean, immediately you started talking about Jesus.
RON: Well that’s what Brian had been doing for the eight months previous. That’s all I saw him do. That was my example.
SID: Okay. Now as a Jewish man, I don’t quite get this. He says that Jesus went into a witness protection program and he has just come out, and he wants to tell you who the true Jesus is. We’ll be right back.
Sid: Question, “If someone squeezed you what would come out?” Answer, “Not a whole lot different then if someone were to squeeze someone that did not know the Messiah.” Problem, “How do you solve it?” I have an individual that I’ve just gotten to know on the telephone and I am so excited about this interview. That by faith we’ve decided to do 2 weeks; his name is Leif Hetland and Leif was born in Norway from a 4th generation Pentecostal family. He went astray as so many young people today are doing it. But he had an encounter with the Messiah that revolutionized his life and he decided he would serve God. But he quickly as a Pastor went into burned out works mentality. He didn’t know anything better so he kept doing it. But then he found that there was something better. Then he found that there was something more and then his whole ministry was transformed. And I’m believing as you listen to us this week your whole life will be transformed. Aren’t you crying, aren’t you praying to God that there must be something more? Aren’t you saying to God ‘I’m desperate for greater intimacy with you.” Yet there seems to be something that is blocking what you know should be yours but you don’t have it yet. I believe that you ease drop in our conversation that there’s going to be light-bulb that will go on that will forever change your destiny. Leif,I had a very unfortunate thing happen to me a couple of days ago. I got together with a friend of mine is a Biblical counselor and he said “Sid, would you please pray for me because I’m meeting with one of the worse situations; a little fourteen year old girl; she had never been sexually active and one day she had an argument with her parents and she went out in a huff and got together with a male friend and had one beer.” And he said “You know you really, and she had never had beer in her life.
Sid: And she came from a good Christian family and then her friend said “You know,” and they were at a party with a few other people, “You really need to unwind would you have another beer.” And she did; she had the second beer and then before she knew it they slipped a drug on her called ecstasy and before she knew it she was getting intimate with all of the male guests at that party.
Sid: And she was going to now meet with this Biblical counselor; what a sad tragedy! And he said something to me which I would like you to pick up on. He said when he first spoke with her he said “Where do you think you made your mistake?” And she said “When I had my first beer.”
Sid: And he said “No, you made your first mistake when you got angry with your parents.” I’d like to know what’s going on inside of you with that story.
Leif: Well, I can identify with that story because it was very similar to my own life and my own story because of anger towards parents and eventually towards church and also related towards anger towards God. And I spent about 5 years with scars as a consequence of some of my action that I did as a result of it. But I do believe that so many young people that are looking for security; they’re looking for love, value; they’re looking for affirmation they’re looking for purpose and destiny. And suddenly as a thing in the middle of that when something is being devastated many times when they don’t know what to do they don’t know where to go. First of all I want to encourage some of the parents as a reminder of Luke 15 where you have a perfect father and still one of them chose rebellion and the other one chose religion despite of the parents have lived right and perfect. The other encouragement I want to say even to this young lady and this young girl like it is my life and I hope that no body needs to experience what she had experienced. And then at the same time Sid I have seen again and again where the Father Himself places His robe of righteousness. And I have sit there actually who had ended up actually with prostitution and has stood before an altar with white dress feeling like virgin again. And that means that through Messiah, through Jesus an encounter of the robe of righteousness being placed upon them that they have been bathed by the Father and in the Father’s love. And He went back and He visited that incidents and all the different things that took place that the Father just erased and when they’re looking back they’re not looking at their history but their destiny. So I think that even like a Rehab she was not treated on behalf of her history but her destiny. And I just want to encourage both the parents that even if they’ve been perfect parents you can still end up with a prodigal son and a brother. And for this precious little girl what men had meant for evil God still can use this for good and she could be a tool that God can use if she just allowed healing love of God to move in and to visit that episode and to be able to through the precious blood of Jesus like we believe in physical healing do an emotional healing. And I have 100′s and 100′s of stories just from the last couple of weeks not of the same incidents but similar incidents where people again have been restored back again just before the fall came in. So I am sadden in behalf of her and her family and at the same time period I do believe as I’m saying that so many times I’ve seen that tragedy has become a triumph. And instead of whining we can be shinning; instead of being bitter we can become better. And that’s what I and I pray that the rest of the believing audience will do; we will stand in the gap and we’ll pray that for this for this 14 year old girl and the family. And that this little girl can be another person that would fit into the Hebrew hall of faith, I will call it a hall of grace. And humility releases God’s ability, so when she has broken down she’s been humbled I just ask now that we would have the same view towards this girl as we see the Heavenly Father did in Luke 15 towards a prodigal son because maybe of his anger and hurt he wasted his inheritance. And let us just also keep that heart and that love. And I do believe that that perfect love can come in and it can bring healing to the wounded heart and the wounded spirit and one day that she can stand before a husband even back in the memory bank knows what happened she can still feel like a virgin because of the precious blood of Jesus covers over all of the mistakes that she has done.
Sid: Leif I want to take you back to 1995 and an individual I’ve interviewed several times crossed paths with you; his name is Randy Clark. Tell me what he prophesied.
Leif: Well, I was in a pastors conference in Halgason, Norway. I was the Senior Pastor of Psalmist Baptist Church. And in the middle of the meeting like everybody else I had a lot of orphan spirit and orphan thinking; I can be honest I went there I want to get something so I can have a growing congregation of gifts of the Spirit. I was there to evaluate God in what He was going to do for me. But when Randy came up to me and he prophesied he spoke and he saw a picture of me being a bulldozer and he said, “You are going to go into nations and territories where the gospel has never been before and I’m seeing like the Amazon jungle a bulldozer and I’m seeing it’s knocking down all of those trees but I’m seeing there is a mass amount of people that is following after you.” And then he used the word apostle. As a Baptist I was just thinking well, missionary but I didn’t understand what that meant. But right after that I had a major injury where I ended up with almost nine months out and in of hospital and almost most lost my sanity; so it’s very strange that there’s a battle that you have to fight after the battle you won. There God is making me pregnant-ed with His purpose and His reason but I didn’t have ears to hear what that meant. But for nine months I laid in hospital bed with a destroyed neck and back. And all I could do was to look up and during that time period the Father started to beat His beat in my heart in regard to the 35,000 people who died today who lived their whole entire life on this earth and they never heard the name of Jesus and it just changed my life.
Sid: In your wildest imagination Leif, in your wildest imagination did you ever think you would win a half a million Muslims to the Lord?
Leif: Definitely no and still sometimes I feel intimidated when I’m hearing about me winning because I do know so clearly everything is God’s grace. And it’s such a team effort and there’s other people that definitely needs to get the honor and the glory for that. I was thinking about one Pakistani missionary who said “I spent 25 years praying and preparing the ground and eventually was kicked out of the country. And I saw two believers in those 25 years. He is a professor of one of the most famous seminary actually the head of the Messiology Department with a PhD. And then for us to be able to be coming into place such a seed to 10s and 10s of thousands of people in every single meeting.
Sid: I was watching a video in Pakistan and seeing blind eyes open and people…children that have never spoken before, never heard before. And I believe Mishpochah that God has lead Leif to an understanding of the Father’s love that the Father God has for Leif. And the Father has so much love He has as much love for you as He has for Leif and I believe as much destiny as for you as He has for Leif.
Sid: Let me tell you some good news; we are proclaiming the gospel in the largest Jewish populated city in the world, New York City; secular television; prime time. Listen to this we just went on RNN TV which is carried on the Time Warner Cable in New York City, Manhattan channel number 91. We’re on Monday nights at 9:30 pm; the Time Warner cable has 4.2 million households or 93% of New York’s total cable households. And the RNN it’s self covers New York City, Hudson Valley, as well as New Jersey. So as far as I’m concerned to be on secular radio in New York City at this strategic, strategic moment in which God is removing the spiritual scales on the eyes of Jewish people. And I want to have the money to pay for this and God is going to provide it. We took a step out in faith; we are debt free but I believe God told us to go on this station and I want to have the money to have advertisements in New York City newspapers directing Jewish people to watch “It’s Supernatural Television” where they will see miracles such as the guest I have on the telephone right now. His name is Bill Kent I’m speaking to him at his home in Blue Ridge Summit, Pennsylvania. This is without a doubt one of the most verified medical miracles I have ever seen in almost 30 years investigating miracles. Bill was in an accident; hard to believe he had a motorcycle accident with a train in May of 1985. He had closed head injuries, massive traumatic brain damage, spinal injuries, ruptured optic nerve, cardiac arrest; he was comatose for 3 months the doctor said “There’s no hope.” Quadriplegic, in a wheelchair and he’s about ready to commit suicide, he had all sorts of turmoil going on his life. You can understand this; how many years were you in the wheelchair Bill?
Bill: Fifteen and a half years;
Sid: Fifteen and a half years. He actually was involved in the Wheelchair Olympics and he won 39 Gold Metals in shooting. But he heard a voice and the voice said go to Columbus, Ohio on a specific date, November 5th. So he just didn’t know what but this voice kept repeating itself day after day; November 5th go to Columbus, Ohio. And so he turns on the TV channel surfing and he catches Rod Parsley, he’s never seen him before and Rod’s talking it’s an infomercial on a Debt Burning Service. But it’s like the Holy Spirit said “That’s the place and it’s in Columbus, Ohio where I’m sending you,” but he didn’t have any money. And his church took up an offering and he went to Columbus, Ohio. It just turns out on November 5th there happens to be a Miracle Healing Service. So he wheels himself in; he had already talked to someone on the telephone getting some instructions and the person prayed for him. And for the first time he felt burning in his feet; he knew God was up to something; and so he goes in wheels into the church and what happened next Bill.
Bill: Well, after we entered the sanctuary the service began and the director of praise and worship came out and made the announcement “It was going to be a miracle faith and healing service, but there couldn’t be any unbelief in the house.” So he said “If you can’t believe or you don’t believe then he’d have to ask you to leave. and I saw a few people get up and leave. Well praise the Lord for that because the next thing that happened Pastor Parsley came out you know after the praise and worship for about an hour and hour and half Pastor Parsley comes out. And he says that “The Lord had woken him in the wee hours of the morning and told him that there was somebody coming from far away on the promise that he would be healed.” Well my spirit just absolutely leapt you know because that was me; you know I had come from far away on the promise that I’d be healed. So the service goes on and you know Pastor calls the first thing that happens pastor calls the homosexuals down, blows my mind. He commands the church in prayer over these homosexuals that they be set free. It’s unlike anything that I’d ever experienced before; the unity in prayer in that church was incredible. There were over 7,000 people in that church that night and to command prayer where 7,000 people come into unity like that it was incredible. The service goes on; he then calls the diabetics down and that’s me because I’m a diabetic.
Sid: In addition to everything else (Laughing)
Bill: The parking lot just before entering the church I tested my blood sugar. Now I had not had insulin for 3 days I ran out and couldn’t afford to buy any. So my blood sugar tested in the parking lot was 470. Normal blood sugar is between 80 and 140 once you get above 140 you’re in trouble. Mine was 470; so I go down front with my dog and you know I’m sitting there and prayer is going on and the church comes into such unity again but I don’t feel anything. Pastor Parsley said this is for only the diabetics so if you’re down here and you don’t have diabetes go back to your seat and wait. Well, a few minutes went by and then he said “The Holy Ghost just said ‘If you have way feel that you’re going to be healed of anything you had better get down here.’” So with that 1000′s came down front the prayers went on, general prayer for healing for all kinds of different infirmities, carpal tunnel syndrome, cancer, HIV, back pain, knee pain, all kinds of things. And I started seeing miracles unfold; I started seeing blind eyes opened. I started seeing deaf ears pop, and people beginning to hear, I saw chronic back pain you know gone. I saw cancer gone, I saw visible tumors disappear right before my eyes. It’s incredible absolutely positively incredible. So you know it’s like the service is going on and on and on and on. And it seems to me like it’s getting towards the end of the service and you know I’m starting to feel a little bit let down. I just cry out to God. I said “God, You told me to come to Columbus, Ohio, and You told me to come to Columbus, Ohio and I’d be healed but I don’t feel anything. And so it’s like “I know You’re not a liar, I know that You’re a God of Your word; and this is what You told me to do so You better do something.” And with that I went to adjust myself in my wheelchair and one of ushers his name is Jerry Moore, he was standing to my left. Jerry leaned over and he says, “Are you trying to get out of that chair?” And what I wanted to say was “No, I’m just adjusting myself” but before I could say anything words came out of my mouth “I’m going to jump out this chair in 30 seconds.”
Sid: My goodness when it came out of your mouth what did you think?
Bill: I didn’t know what to think I was you know, in shock and awe.
Sid: Did you get up?
Bill: I did 30 seconds later I was standing up and Jerry the usher the only thing that kept him from hitting the floor was that there was a knee wall behind him that caught his fall. And so he started you know praising God you know and said “Can you walk?” And I said “I don’t know this is the first time I stood in 15½ years. So he said “Take 3 steps forwards and 3 steps back” and before I knew it I had done it. And then he says to me he says “Can you walk up those steps onto the platform?” And I you know just held my hands up and said “I don’t know let’s ask God.” And before I knew it I was on the platform.
Sid: How did you get there?
Bill: I don’t know.
Bill: God knows.
Sid: How many years since you’ve been able to walk?
Bill: Fifteen ½ years.
Sid: Here let me read this to you Mishpochah by the way he got his blood sugar down to normal; he actually tested it while he was there. He is not crippled in any way and let me read from doctor, he’s the M.D. Dr. Horns report which I have right here. “Mr. Kent has been supernaturally healed and there is no medical or scientific explanation for what has taken place. He went in a quadriplegic with diabetes and a few other things and he walked out; he walked out.” What did you do with your wheelchair?
Bill: Well, I still have it because that wheelchair is part of my testimony but I don’t use it. And I have not used it since that night.
Sid: Okay Mishpochah how would you like to have this testimony covering all the Jewish people and all the gentile people in all of New York City. I just told you by faith I went on a secular station and they cover 4.2 million households; New York City, Hudson Valley, Connecticut, New Jersey. I need help. I need you to pray for this ministry; I tell you this is God’s time to remove the spiritual scales from the eyes of Jewish people.
Sid: My guest is Pastor Robert Gay; Robert has been given a revelation of the next level in reference to grace taking the Ten Commandments and pushing us into that higher level. Robert many people who disregard unfortunately the only Bible the first church had; the Old Testament. Say we’re not even interested in fact you told me something that you heard on TV about the Ten Commandments; what was that.
Robert: Well, I heard somebody ministering the other day and he actually came out and said that any pastor or preacher that teaches the Ten Commandments to their congregation that they were killing their congregation. And of course my thought to that was “Well, Jesus didn’t get that memo. And obviously Paul didn’t get that memo and either did James because both Jesus, Paul, and James articulated if not all of the Ten Commandments most of them. Of course between all three of them all of them were re-articulated in some manner or form. And Jesus actually takes the commandments into what we call a higher level. The next level so a grace you know because we are now saved through grace it doesn’t mean that the bar has been lowered; it actually means that the standard has been raised. And so I think that it’s very important that we a New Testament believers realize that the Old Testament again as you even pointed out was the only Bible the early church had. That’s the Bible that Paul preached out of; that’s the Bible that all of the apostles preached out of. We don’t have an Old Testament God and a New Testament God He’s the same yesterday, today and forever.
Sid: Now give and example of how it was brought to a new level; but your teaching is so good on each one of the Commandments. Pick one of the Commandments and explain.
Robert: Well, we see how that Jesus actually takes the Commandments and takes it to what I call the next level; a higher lever; a higher dimension. For instance the one concerning murder we’ll use that one. He said “You’ve heard that it’s said don’t murder, but I’m telling you don’t even be angry without a cause. And then whenever you read on what Jesus actually actually begins to tell everybody is to you either need to agree and get over your issue. Now as a matter of fact I have a chapter within my book called “Get over it.” That actually has to do with the command of that “You shall not murder.” In other words what Jesus was actually teaching is “You’ve got to deal with the root of murder; if you deal with anger murder won’t be an issue. If you deal with unforgiveness murder will not be an issue with anybody’s life. As a matter of fact it actually John later on, the Apostle John when in his writings it actually talks about how that if you hate your brother it’s the same as murder. Well, why would somebody hate somebody; it’s because of some type of issue of anger, unforgiveness, bitterness, jealousy. All of these things that actually leads somebody to the sin of murder.
Sid: Well, even the say adultery the roots are similar.
Robert: Well, exactly and really the commandment even concerning adultery; Jesus takes to the next level. Jesus says “You’re heard not to commit adultery but I’m telling you not to even look in that direction; whoever looks on a woman to lust after her actually commits adultery in his heart.” So what Jesus addresses there is the root of the problem, the root of the issue; the root of the sin; and of course the root is lust in the heart of man. Well, thank God Jesus took care of that; we are now new creations in Christ Jesus so now we’re enabled to fulfill that Commandment. So really even the Commandment of adultery has to do really with the necessity of commitment and covenant; and staying in covenant, walking in covenant; keeping your commitment and that’s what even that Commandment is about.
Sid: Robert explain the first Commandment, most believers don’t understand it from a New Covenant understanding; explain.
Robert: Well, of course in the original Ten Commandments the First Commandment was to have no other gods before Me. And if you actually take that and place that in the affirmative what really means is this “Put God first, make Him a priority of your life.” And we see Jesus even re articulating that Commandment when He said “Seek yea first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you. You know there’s something that takes place whenever we make God the priority of our life; when we make Jesus the priority of our life things begin to fall into place. I think that it’s so interesting whenever Jesus even begins to talk about this Commandment and the principals concerning this Commandment. How that He actually says don’t seek after food, and clothing and raiment and all these things. And then He says this for after these things the Gentiles seek. What Jesus meant when He said the Gentiles is He was saying was those who are outside of Covenant. This is the way that people who are living outside of a Covenant operate. They’re always concerned about what am I going to have to eat, what am I going to have to wear. Where am I going to live; all these natural things but then He says, “But if you’ll seek first the Kingdom of God.” In other words “If you make God the priority of your life, if you make Him the focus of your attention then all of these things are going to be added unto you. Which leaves me to say this, the purpose for the very first commandment is so that God can bring blessing into our life. You have to understand that God in bringing forth the Ten Commandments was not trying to cramp our style and trying to make life difficult for us. He was saying “If you will do these things, you are going to see an outpouring of My blessing the same way Jesus said “If you seek first the Kingdom of God all of these things are going to be added.” He didn’t say “They’re going to be taken away from you.” He said “You are going to be blessed; you are going to have everything that you needed plus, you are going to be overwhelmed by the very blessing of God.
Sid: What about the time that Jesus said to people “I never knew you.” Explain that scripture.
Robert: Right, well it’s very interesting that Jesus said “Many will come to me in that day.” And I think that it’s very interesting that He used the word “Many.” But He said “Many will come to me in that day and say “Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in Your Name; have we not cast out devils in Your Name?” Have we not healed the sick in Your Name; have we not done all of these wonderful, glorious things. And which we are even commanded to do and even exhorted to do as believers. And we can do as believers because of the supernatural power of God. But then this is what Jesus says; He says “Then I’ll look at them and say “Depart from me you who practice lawlessness.” So it’s very interesting from this particular account that Jesus begins to declare and begins to teach on. He sayings “You know you called Me Lord, you prophesied, you did all these things however there’s something missing in your life.” And that is this “You practiced lawlessness.” And lawlessness is basically is living void of law; living without any law. And again law for many Christians law is almost like a cuss word it’s a bad word for so many people.
Sid: All of us have heard the praise “We’re no longer under the law.” What does that mean to you?
Robert: Well, of course I do agree to a certain degree, there are certain aspects of law that we are no longer under. I mean I’m glad that I can go to church and I don’t have to bring some type of sacrifice; I can bring the sacrifice of praise. Blood sacrifices, these types of sacrifices, these types of things that were involved in Levitical law are no longer applicable to us and Jesus took care of that at the cross. However, everyone of the Ten Commandments are rearticulated in the New Testament. And so to say that we are in some way no longer under that again as I have already spoken about that some we actually have the Law of God written on our hearts now. So if anything we are actually tied to moral law to a greater degree now as those under the New Covenant than even those that lived under the New Covenant.
Sid: Give me an example of somebody in your church that grabbed hold of your teaching and what happened to them.
Robert: We had one gentleman; he was actually a used car salesman and he was you stereo-typical used car salesman and he would try to make a buck off everything. He really lived his life as a taker. We began to teach this about learning to live your life as a giver because that is what the commandment of “Do not steal, actually the heart of the commandment is to live your life as a giver.” And anyway he began to turn his life around He began to give; he began to tithe and he began to give offerings; a very very generous giver. As a result of that he owns a million dollar business God has opened up the doors for him and has done this tremendous tremendous supernatural miracle in his life in the area of finances. And it’s all because he got a hold of of an understanding of that I’m not going to live my life as a taker any more; I’m not going to steal anymore. But I’m going to live my life as a giver.
Sid: My guest is Pastor Robert Gay and Robert on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about what God spoke to you about grace and the Ten Commandments and the great outpouring of God’s Spirit. And how that many Christians are going to miss this outpouring because they don’t understand the New Covenant revelation of the Ten Commandments which will bring them to a higher level in God in every dimension of their life. Many would say “But Robert, Jesus Himself said “You only have to have 2 Commandments you don’t need the 10.” What would say to that?
Robert: Well, the first thing that I would say is that that’s actually not what Jesus said. (Laughing) And the second thing is I would say is to explain what He meant whenever He said it. Jesus was asked a question and the question is “Which are the greatest Commandments, or which is the greatest Commandment?” And of course He said “The greatest Commandment is to to “Love the Lord Your God with all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.” And then He says in the second Command is liken unto it “You’ll love your neighbor as yourself.” And then He says “On these two Commandments hang all the law and the prophets. And so what was understood by the Jewish theologians is that the; of course the Ten Commandments were on two tablets. The first tablet had to do with you loving the Lord; loving God. The second tablet actually had to do with loving your neighbor as yourself and your behavior toward your neighbor. So the first tablet had to do with the relationship we had to do with God. The second tablet had to do with the relationship between man and his neighbor. And so it was understood that that comprised the Ten Commandments. So whenever Jesus actually said “To love the Lord your God with all your soul, all your heart and all your mind and all your strength” that was an immediate reference back to the first tablet. And then when He said “Love your neighbor as yourself.” That’s an immediate reference back to the second table.” And to even further verify that we see how that Paul said that “Loving your neighbor as yourself actually caused all the other commandments particularly located in the second tablet how it caused all of them to be fulfilled.”
Sid: What did God show you about the Ten Commandments in the Prophet Jeremiah?
Robert: Well, Jeremiah began to speak over there in the 31st chapter of Jeremiah how that there was a New Covenant that was coming. And what was different about the New Covenant was this God said, “I will write My law upon their hearts.” And so there’s no indication that there would be so much a change of moral law but that the location of where the moral law was at that was what was going to change. And so in the New Covenant what we have now is that we actually have those Commandments that are written upon our hearts rather than written on tables of stone. So what we have now is a internal law that motivates us rather than an external law that imposes upon us. So grace can in no way separate us from the Ten Commandments it actually ties us to them even to a greater degree. Now we know that they are actually fulfilled through love but understand more to be fulfilled through love there must be something that needs to be fulfilled. And I believe what we are to fulfill is obedience to the Ten Commandments.
Sid: What one of the things that to me is an amazing revelation is that you call your book “Next Level.” You’ve see that when people look at the Ten Commandments with grace it’s the only way to live. Give us some examples.
Robert: Well, again we’ve seen so many folks who as they grab a hold of this revelation first of all it begins to change the way that they live. It changes their behavior; it changes they’re outlook on life because now I’m not looking at grace merely as something that covered my sin; as wonderful and great as that is but the grace of God is the fact that I am now empowered to live above sin. That’s the reason Paul said “Sin will not have dominion over you.” And the reason for that is because now I live my life by the law of the Spirit. But the law of the Spirit is not contrary to the Ten Commandments. And so what we have to begin to realize as we begin to receive this revelation; as we begin to understand that we can live life at a higher level. You know I know of churches that have taught and even pastors many times that have taught that you just can’t help but sin there’s no way that you can live a lifestyle of obedience. And I believe that the grace of God is greater than that and I believe that we can live at a higher level. And as we begin to do that it opens up realms to us that causes things to begin to take place within our lives that are only available when we only experience as a result of obedience and adherence to what God has called us to do.
Sid: Give me an example; take one of the Commandments and show us how it operates under grace.
Robert: Well, let’s just take for instance the Commandment of – the 2nd Commandment which is “You’re not to make any graven image and you’re not to bow down to that image.” Really the heart of the Commandment is all about worship. AS a matter of fact where it actually commands for those to not bow down to idols. The word bow down there the Hebrew word is translated repeatedly through the Books of Psalms as worship. So the commandment is not so much don’t have any sculptured idol; that really was not what God was speaking about. But He was talking about worship; He was talking about the mandate of worship and how worship is so important. I think that it’s so interesting to…as you even begin to look at that Commandment that whenever, Jesus was being tempted by the devil in the wilderness He actually used that Commandment to overcome the devil. The enemy came to Him; the devil came to Him and said “You can have all of these things things that you are looking at right now; all the kingdoms of this world you can have them right now if you’ll bow down and worship me.” What Jesus uses then to overcome the devil He reaches back over into the 2nd Commandment and He begins to actually quote the 2nd Commandment and He says “You will only worship the Lord and Him only will you serve.” And so Jesus is actually restating the 2nd Commandment which is a commandment about worship. And what’s very interesting Sid is after Jesus says that the Bible says that the devil left him. It’s interesting that when we start worshiping God how that actually causes the devil to begin to run away. I think that there are a lot of believers that would have a lot less trouble in their life if they begin to live a lifestyle of worship; a lifestyle of praise. But that is all withheld in the 2nd Commandment we can see that mandate of worship that we see dictated in the 2nd Commandment.
Sid: You know I’m reminded; I’m told that when you worship at your congregation you’ve literally without an altar call or anything had people run to the altar to be saved.
Robert: And we have had that happen on numerous occasions. We had one time a gentleman that had actually decided that he was going to be an atheist. And not only but he had left his wife and he had filed for divorce. They had went through a divorce; he had came back and visited in a service and in the middle of worship God got a hold of of his heart; God got a hold of his heart. He came down in the middle of worship and he rededicated his life and today their family’s back together; today they’re serving the Lord.
Sid: You know on tomorrow’s broadcast the revelations that God has given you on the New Covenant understanding of the connection between grace and the 10 Commandments. I believe every Christian has to hear this; in fact my experience; well it’s been your experience even knowing all of the Ten Commandments.
Robert: Well, I think that it can definitely be argued from just the life styles that many people who call themselves Christians live I think that it can be argued that they don’t even know the 10 Commandments. And I believe that we need to have a fresh understanding; and you know you think about this God could have said anything that he wanted to say to his people, declare to Moses their on mount Sinai. But there were 10 specific edicts that God gave. Well if God felt that it was so important that He Himself would come down and engrave those in tablets of stone I believe that we as Christians should definitely place some value upon these commands that God given to us.
Sid: Well, I love the uniqueness of your teaching.