Sid: My guest is Bill Johnson Senior Leader of Bethel Church in Redding, California. And I’ve had the privilege of sitting under Bill’s ministry, and I have to say I don’t know of anyone else I’ve seen that have had so many manifestations of miracles. So I wanted to find out how this happened. Well I can’t even call them normal because he’s a 5th generation Pastor and it runs in his genes, in his DNA. But not what he experienced one night the electricity of God… Bill Johnson, did it hurt this electricity of God? I know that if lightning hits you that would hurt?
Bill: It wasn’t painful but also was not pleasant it was very very uncomfortable. It was gratifying in the sense that I lived so aware of God being in the room, but physically it was not a pleasant experience of what I felt physically.
Sid: So this happened 3 nights in a row from about 3:00 to 6:00 AM in the morning. The third night, if I understand you right, that same presence of God went on your wife.
Sid: Now did she deal with it better than you?
Bill: I don’t know the process she went through on the inside I think it was more of just an unusual encounter with the Lord. I don’t know that He had to hunt for the same thing in her heart that He had to find in mine.
Sid: And repeat for those that didn’t listen yesterday what did He basically say to you?
Bill: The Lord was looking for me to give up my right for dignity. That He wanted the right to be able to use me in any way that He wanted even if I looked foolish, even if I didn’t come across as being dignified or respectful and giving up the right for that is sometimes important for the ministering of the gospel.
Sid: Well you did finally say “You counted the cost” as it says in the Bible and you said “Yes to the Lord.” Tell me the first time you lost your dignity.
Bill: (Laughing) Well it was a season of time where the visitation. It just came in ways that we didn’t expect we didn’t know what to do. It was the Lord dealing with me because I have said yes in the secret place He trusted me to lead some of those meetings in a public place. So the Holy Spirit would come in greater power, we didn’t always know what was happening we would examine the fruit afterwards, we’d find out that a marriage was healed, we’d find that somebody’s body was healed or some person came to Christ or something. But it didn’t always look logical at the time. And so it was something that happened to me publically but it also happened to most everyone else in the room. So it was a process and it was a season of many years where I was required because of that “Yes” that I made to the Lord I was required to live with a certain amount of risk to see what the Lord wanted to do in a given setting.
Sid: Did you ever get used to that, that risk because that doesn’t sound like the type of person you were?
Bill: No, no I’ve never I’ve had to push into it in a sense for the miracles and the healings that we see happen. It certainly easier today than it was 15, 16 and 17 years ago but I still have to intensely push into it realizing that I don’t know what’s about to happen. I’m pushing into the unknown only knowing that God is good and that He will do something significant. And so I don’t get paranoid but I really want to make sure that I hear correctly because I know that often times breakthrough is connected to our deliberate and accurate obedience.
Sid: Okay, you’ve been at this how many years has it been since this power encounter?
Bill: Since that encounter would be 1995 so it’s 18 years.
Sid: Okay, what… tell me some secrets that you have learned in that period of time that you wished that you had known at day one, if you had down it you might have not said yes. (Laughing)
Bill: (Chuckle) The secrets have to deal in 2 areas. One is the nature of God and the other is how He uses us. So the first thing would be the thing that I wished I had known you know 20-30 years ago 40 years ago when I first started. I wish I would have known how good God was. Just discovering the absolute perfect goodness of God has been the greatest delight of my life. That goodness doesn’t translate into tolerating sin, people misunderstand that and that’s not accurate but He is so incredibly kind. And I wish I would have known that because all of the healing, all of the prophetic, all of the things that we have experienced really flow out of that goodness. His heart of great, great love and compassion and affection for people; I wished I would have known that better at the beginning.
Sid: Most people judge God by their earthly father.
Bill: That’s true.
Sid: And that’s a wrong thing to do because how can you judge a human against pure love.
Bill: Yeah, you’re right and that’s messed a lot of people up because they didn’t have a good home. I had a great home and I still struggle with it and so I can only imagine what people deal with that were raised in a abusive or less than kind household. So it’s just one thing that I wish I had known earlier than I did. The second is I had this notion that you had to be a special person for God to use you. You know I grew up and my family had sat under Wigglesworth Ministry and uncle was a soloist for Aimee Semple McPherson and so we had a lot of good…
Sid: You know you are provoke… you know I’m Jewish and the Bible says “The Gentile believers to provoke the Jews to jealousy, but you’re sure doing it now but go ahead. (Laughing)
Bill: Yeah well, I grew up hearing those stories and it put an appetite in me which is really good but I caught a message that nobody was telling me but somehow I caught it that you had to be a special person. You know Wigglesworth was unusually gifted in faith, Kathryn Kuhlman had an unusual sense of God’s presence and I just never qualified. And so I would dismiss this urge to see the authentic gospel displayed with purity and power, but it kept coming back, kept coming back, kept coming back until I went to a John Wimber Conference and I saw them model demonstrate and teach how everyone, everyone can do this. And it changed my life and I’m forever indebted to…
Sid: Now wait a second now you told me about that power encounter where electricity came over your body 3 nights in a row for 3 hours so you were a special person. How can you say that that person listening to me can do what you can do?
Bill: Well first of all okay it started in ’87 it started before ’95 and it started when I was pasturing a small tiny little church up in the mountain. I didn’t have any kind of experience or reputation or anything, I just went to a conference where I saw John Wimber and his team the Vineyard Movement I saw them model how every person can do this and they did it in a way that they that fit my life. You know it was hard for me to ever imagine me being in a large crusade preaching to 10’s of 1000’s of people but I knew that I could talk one on one and could pray for someone. And they modeled that for me and it set me up and that’s when the miracles started it was 1987. The explosion came in ’95 but that wasn’t something I knew would happen. But I cried out for more knowing that I had tasted enough to be ruined forever. I really wanted a greater and a more significant breakthrough so that was my hearts cry you know and that’s how and when the Lord really really visited me that’s then.
Sid: You know I hear this often for lack of a better words such a desperation for more of God and I’ve heard this from many people that have had wonderful ministries. But if I’m understanding you right whether someone has that supernatural desperation or not when they understand it they can go for God desperately and end up with the same things that you and the people out at your school get.
Bill: Yeah, I believe that I do God is moved by hunger. And people that are hungry, you know people let me say this I’ve seen people that get really hungry but they end up in unbelief because their hunger is a striving, it’s not anchored in the goodness of God it’s not anchored in promises it’s just… it’s anchored in an ideal that they never reach. I see others that they are hungry but they know that God is good and they’re seeking for this wonderful Father to touch them more deeply and profoundly. What hurts people is when they try to have somebody else’s experience. I think it’s legitimate for us to pursue outcome but not experience.
Sid: You know what I would love everyone listening to us to do and that is have you come to their house invite a few of their friends and teach them the most important thing that every Christian has to learn how to host the presence of God. Here let me read to you what Heidi Baker said when she got a hold of this book. Bill Johnson’s book “Hosting the Presence” is one of the most powerful books that I have ever read. I was undone by chapter 1 and found myself weeping and crying out for more of the manifest presence of God to rest on my life. I was wrecked with a greater hunger to be fully possessed by the glory of God and filled with fresh longing for my life to be distinguished by His presence…”
Sid: There is a book that’s shaking up people all over the world. Why do I say that it’s shaking up people? Because certain prophetic events happened it talked about them. And so some of the top secular talk show hosts of America are saying the most amazing things about this book and it was written by a evangelical Christian whose father just happens to come from an orthodox Jewish background. And the book is called “The Last Days” the first book that Joel Rosenberg wrote was called “The Last Jihad.” And Joel how in the world did you get the idea to work into the story line all about the terrorism that would happen to America and you wrote the book before 9/11 and that’s what blows people out of the water. How did you get your thoughts to even do such a book, how did you do such a book I understand you were praying to God about it.
Joel: I was, let me set up what’s dramatic about the book and then I’ll go back and explain that. Because people that have not read “The Last Jihad” does not realize is that the first page of the book puts you inside the cockpit of a highjack aircraft highjacked by radical Islamic terrorists coming in on a kamakasi attack mission into an America city. Now I wrote that 9 months before September 11th. As the plot of “The Last Jihad” unfolds the FBI and the CIA trance the trail of terror back to Bagdad to Iraq. And suddenly the President of the United States and his senior advisors find themselves in a showdown with Sadheim Hussein over weapons of mass destruction. All of that was written before 9/11 before the debate over going to war in Iraq and certainly before the war itself. And when it came out people were just stunned “How could you have possibly known this?” Now with people getting a sense of what it’s about back up the clock to January 2001. I had worked for a lot of interesting political leaders over the years Bill Bennett, Jack Kemp, Steve Forbs, Rush Limbaugh. As well as former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu but after all of that about 10 or 11 years in the political life Sid I felt like my wife and I were praying “What should I do now with the rest of my career?” I had to ask myself “If I had been as passionate about sharing the gospel with people as I had for example with Flat Tack when I worked with Steve Forbs? And the honest conclusion was I’m comfortable but no, I had been more passionate about the flat tax or the social security reform or conservatism in general then I had about sharing my faith in Jesus as the Messiah. So my wife and I began to pray Jeremiah 33:3 “Call to Me and I will hear you and answer you and show you great and mighty things you do not know.” And my wife and I were praying with our kids we’ve got 3 boys Caleb, Jacob and Jonah 9, 7 and 5 years old we call them the Ringling Brothers.
Joel: Three ring circus in our house.
Sid: I’m sure.
Joel: And we’d been praying with them you know Daddy needs to write a book but we need to ask God for a story something interesting that will draw people in on a fascinating story. And then about ¾’s of a way into it when hopefully somebody can’t put it down Daddy can share the gospel with people, that was my heart; that was my prayer. We were praying Jeremiah 33:3 because Daddy did not have a story to tell. Well in January of ’01 I sat down and the story that began to come out was about this high-jacked jet coming in on this kamakasi attack mission. Now some of the details were different I had visioned a flight coming into Denver and not to New York or Washington at a business jet not a commercial airliner. But the operation times that were so chillingly real in the morning of 9/11 my wife and kids and I we live in Washington not far from the Pentagon I was actually writing the second to last chapter of the last Jihad about a kamakasi attack that leads to a war with Iraq when the news began to break about these attack and it was a horrifying time for all of us in America particularly in Washington. And I had just been to the top of the World Trade Center just a few weeks before with then Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neal we had lunch in there with some Wall Street executives. And I had been right in that restaurant on the 110th floor just marveling at this amazing feat of human engineering and technology and now is all gone. And I’m telling you as having written a story that just was so chillingly real to events that were now beginning to unfold it was was eerie I’m not sure of another way to put it. But it also felt like there’s no way I could publish this book now I mean it was too real, too raw and it wasn’t until January…
Sid: It’s a good thing that we don’t have to figure things out when we’re working for God.
Joel: Well, that’s true because I said to the Lord…I had been praying Jeremiah 33:3 and You gave me a fascinating story but now this book is useless there’s no way we can sell this book. Well, I felt like the Lord was…I don’t know what the Lord was saying to be honest it was not like He was saying “Wait” I didn’t know what He was saying I was confused. But in January of ’02 my wife and I were watching the State of the Union Address when President Bush talked about the access of evil and said the next great threat to the United States was Saddem Husseim because of his connection to terrorism.
Sid: Which you had in your book.
Joel: Exactly and his connections to weapons of mass destruction. Now at that moment Lynn and I just looked at each other and went aw-o it’s like the Twilights Zone. And the next day my agent called and he said “Do you work for the CIA.”
Joel: You know every time I try to tell them “No I don’t.” He says “Well, that’s just what you have to say if you did work for the CIA. I don’t but it was clear at that point that something…a dramatic turning point had just happened. This novel which was so real a few months before because you couldn’t sell it because it was too painful for people now was foreseeing a battle with Saddeum over weapons of mass destruction that was now as it turned out that was a year and a half or a year and 3 months away. A publisher picked it up very quickly and the book came out in November ’02 and at that moment no one had ever heard of Joel Rosenberg, no one had ever heard of “The Last Jihad” but God had a book there that was so amazingly close to reality that He lifted it into the stratosphere. Very few books by first time novelists hit #1 on Amazon.com or spent 11 weeks on the New York Times best seller list.
Sid: How do you know so much about Bible prophecy? How do you know so much about the inner workings of the political scene? How do you know so much about Israel?
Joel: Well, from the time I was in college…well the time I really wrestled through with God and really came to know Him at the age of 17 I became fascinated with prophesy. First and foremost the Messianic prophecy leading up to in fact that Jesus is the Messiah. That just totally intrigued me, that I was excited to… it just every day I leaned it confirmed my faith. But I also fascinated with prophecy of the times at which we live, I was particularly drawn to Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Where Jesus was taught…where the disciples were being asking him “When are you coming back and what are the signs of the last days or the end times before you return? And I just was fascinated, wars, rumors of wars, you know the list, earthquakes, famines, revolutions, persecution of believers, the spread of the gospel. But what fascinated me most was the idea of this parable of the fig tree and the fig tree being so often in the Old Testament the evidence of Israel. And the idea of that Israel would start to blossom again. Or in Ezekiel 37 come together the dry bones coming back together as a country. And then in Luke 21 where Jesus says that “Jerusalem will come back under the control of the Jewish people after a long time after control of a nation of Gentiles. Well, I was born in April of 1967 to months later Jerusalem came back under the control of the Jewish people after as you know 2000 years under the control of many different nations. And this is just totally fascinated me and I…
Sid: You know someone who hasn’t even had an experiential happening with God if they were to just look at these prophecies in Israel they would have to say “This Book is not a natural book, this Bible is a supernatural book and I must believe.”
Joel: That’s right and that’s how it impacted me. And now spiritually like the Lord never took us into becoming missionaries or you know working on a church staff or para-church staff. He took us professionally into the political realm and that’s where and matched kind of a separate track but parallel began to work with very…some of the best Middle East experts in the world.
Sid: Listen you were the Senior Advisor to Netanyahu who I believe is going to be the next Prime Minister of Israel and many other people believe this. What was that like?
Joel: Well, that was a fascinating time because when I got hired to work for the former Prime Minister it was a time when his processor I’m sorry his successor Ahud Burach was Prime Minister. Burach had just come to Washington with Yasser Afafat and Bill Clinton to basically give away 97% of the west bank and Gaza and Samaria.
Sid: We’re going to pick up on that story because we’re running short of time. But what is your personal view of a Palestinian state?
Joel: Well, as I write about this in “The Last Days” I think that…I think that it’s going to happen.
Sid: Unfortunately I do too and I say unfortunately but go ahead.
Joel: Yeah, I think there’s almost like history is compelling it to happen but I don’t believe that you can give away that which is not yours to give. The President, the America President can’t, and the Israel Prime Minister can’t it doesn’t mean they won’t but God promised Judea and Samaria to the Jewish people long before any of the current President or Prime Ministers.
Sid: In other words the west Bank. We’re out of time Joel.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My guest has found that wherever he goes he can release the Spirit of God. I mean, he walks into buying a cell phone. You’ve bought cell phones before. And he’s just talking, but he’s bringing the Spirit of God in this place and h’s figured out how to be conscious of it and how the presence of God will just radiate wherever he goes. And guess what? The people in the cell phone store fall over slain in the Spirit. You’re trusting in an understanding in how to walk in the presence of God like that? I am. You know, miracles just flow off of my guest. I mean, he’s just—I’m just having to put some makeup on me and the makeup artist is telling me she has a rod in her leg. It causes her to waddle and have discomfort. And so I said, Bill, go pray for her. And just a few seconds ago, she was doing makeup, and she said, “This is amazing.” No, it’s not. It’s normal, normal as defined by the Bible. Now Bill, just kind of whet their appetite. What kind of miracles are happening now that are kind of spectacular going on in your life? Is there a trend?
BILL: There seems to be seasons. I don’t understand that. But there seems to be shifts in focus and emphasis. In the last few years we’ve had a great number of people healed of head trauma, very serious brain injuries, fatal things that were terminal diseases of the brain all the way down to dyslexia, bi-polar, those kinds of things. We’ve also had a lot of people healed with metal in their body where they had restricted movement or you could feel a metal plate in the wrist, and the screws and all of that. I really was encouraged from James Maloney, actually, to go after this because he has had so much breakthrough in that area. So I just started taking a risk looking for the problem and then praying for the people, and you can feel that it’s gone, the rod, the plates. The things that would prevent them from bending they now have complete mobility. It’s extraordinary.
SID: Randy Clark did his doctorate thesis. How many people did he say had metal turn to bone, approximately?
BILL: It’s hundreds. It’s hundreds of people in his study that he has names, addresses, everything. Folks, over, I think it was, I think he did it over a three-year period of time. It’s hundreds of people, not those that just raised their hand to say, but actually were able to follow up and verify. And it’s an extraordinary miracle.
SID: Now I think you’re extraordinary, and I’m going to tell you why. Five generations of pastors and his son is the sixth generation. I think that’s phenomenal. You are a blessed man. But even with all of that, you really didn’t feel qualified to move in the supernatural or the spectacular things that are commonplace for you right now. What changed it?
BILL: Oh goodness. I would pray for a season over people. Nothing would happen. [unintelligible] I would read on how to pray for people. Nothing would ever happen. Nobody ever got healed. I had some die, but nobody would get healed.
SID: By the way, he may be joking. But actually I had that happen to me. I started praying people. Someone died
BILL: I’m not joking. It happened to me, too. But anyway, it just wouldn’t leave the pages of scripture. So while I would leave it for a season, I would come back and be encouraged, and go after it. No breakthrough. Finally, in 1987, somebody encouraged me to go to a John Weber conference. And I saw, I heard them teach what I had been teaching for quite an extended period of time. So nothing was different in that aspect. But I saw that they took risks that I wasn’t willing to take. And I came home. I didn’t pray any differently. I started looking for problems, which was a new twist for me. But I didn’t pray differently, but people started getting healed. It just, it wasn’t just on me. It was actually on the entire church, which was what I wanted. I wanted everybody to get in on it, you know. And so I came home, began to look for problems, pray for people, and miracles actually started immediately. And the one that really lit me up, ignited my heart was a miracle that took place in a store. It was in a public place. It was just a friend who was not a believer, confessed their problems, had to retire at an early age with his arthritis. And I just said, God wants to heal you. Took two minutes to pray, whatever. Dramatically, dramatically healed.
SID: What was he healed of?
BILL: Arthritis all through the joints. He couldn’t pull tools. He couldn’t reach for boxes on his shelf. He owned a business and he was going to have to retire and quit at a young age, in his 40s. And he was just dramatically, dramatically healed, in moments.
SID: Are you telling me everyone that is born again can walk in the Kingdom and have miracles happen?
BILL: Oh yeah, absolutely.
BILL: We must.
SID: And no exceptions.
BILL: No, exceptions, no.
SID: They don’t have to fight generations of pastors.
BILL: No, no, no.
SID: Okay. Nineteen nighty-five, Bill gets desperate. For eight months, he is praying. What are you praying for eight months?
BILL: Oh my. I get a little teary-eyed on this one. I just was praying for more. I just, I knew there was more. We were seeing breakthrough and I was so thankful, and I almost felt greedy. But my heart was exploding with hunger for more, more of God, more of His manifest presence, more of the kinds of breakthroughs that we see in Scripture. I cried out day and night. I’d wake up in the middle of the night. I would wake myself praying. I didn’t wake up to pray. I’m actually praying in my sleep and I wake myself up praying.
SID: By the way, you know how I know this is true? His associate pastor went on a retreat with him and he said, all night long he hears this guy pray, “More Lord, more, more,” in his sleep. So I know it’s true. Then he said one thing more. He said there was like a glow over your face.
BILL: Yeah. Yeah, I didn’t find that out until a year or more later.
SID: I think God likes us praying for more. That’s what I believe, wants you praying for more. Okay. So you prophesy to someone. Maybe at three in the morning you have an encounter with God, to someone else. Three in the morning, what happens to you?
BILL: That same night, I woke up with, you know how you’re in a dead sleep and then in an instant, it’s a millisecond you’re as awake as you could possibly be. And I had what felt like a thousand volts of electricity going through my body, and it was terrifying, exhilarating, all of the above. And I had, the only thing I had control of was my head. I turned my head and I saw the digital clock next to the bed. It was three a.m. exactly. And I instantly remembered the prophetic word I gave to a friend, and I said out loud, I said, “You set me up.” Because I knew that this was God, but I couldn’t explain it. It was, I was embarrassed. I mean, my arm, I had no control over my limbs. I would try to grab my arms and bring them down. My legs would get more violent. And it was, this just went on and on, and on. And I felt my face turn red. You know, how you blush. I was embarrassed over what was happening.
SID: Had you ever had any paradigm for this? Had you ever seen something?
BILL: No, never heard of it. Never heard of it.
SID: Okay. Hold that thought. When we come back, I’m going to have him pick up. And in the meantime, you keep telling God, “More God, more.”
Sid: Hello this is Sid Roth here with Tommy Reid. Tommy before we went on the air I was talking to you about your experiences with Dr. Cho. You went there just as was really getting started. And he had never… when you met him did he really tell you he had never seen a miracle?
Tommy: Well he had seen some healings that they interpreted for him but he never seen a great miracle, he never seen a miracle that was kind of earth shattering to him.
Sid: He’d seen a neck being healed from pain which if someone has a pain in the neck and some people do right now you’re being healed. But he had never seen a blind person see, a deaf hear, a dead person come to life that’s what you’re talking about.
Tommy: Yeah, and he look at me and he said “I don’t even know if I believe this.” Now he had been healed as a young man about 18 or 19 so he saw his own healing but he had never seen a miracle take place in church before. I remember I looked at him I was just a young evangelist and I was probably not too kind sometimes maybe. And I looked at him and said “Bother Cho you will see great miracles during the next few weeks” because he was going to travel with me all over the nation. And we did see that, I mean I would look out at the audience I have pictures that I can’t find right now some place in moving they got lost but a lot of people would… every night there would be a cripple walk, there would be a blind eye see, and that’s why so many people came to our meetings. I mean I remember times when we would be carried out on people’s shoulders because they would get so excited about the miracles of God and he saw that and began to believe for that.
Sid: Well tell me about one of the first major miracles he saw.
Tommy: Well one of the first major miracles and God used him in this and he began to believe for miracles we were holding a meeting in a Presbyterian Church a large Presbyterian Church that was jammed with people 1000’s standing on the outside. And I had to go on to the next city so I went on to the next city with another interpreter he stayed and did another week because the Holy Spirit was moving so greatly in that city. One night it came to him and said “Brother Cho there is a person dying in the hospital if you don’t come down right now he may not live until the service is finished.” So he left the service; went down the hill to the hospital walked in and the man was dead. They had pulled the sheet over his head and the doctor said “No use praying for him he’s dead.” Brother Cho now that he gotten this new impetus on healing pulled the sheet down off of his head, commanded the man to walk. He got up off of that bed now put his clothes on and this was a very steep hill between there and the church and he walked him all the way up that steep hill and he walked into the church and said “The dead man is alive!” The first miracle that he saw and that I remember him seeing that was under his own ministry was a dead man brought to life.
Sid: But you know what I believe Tommy I believe we are at the point right now that we are going to see the greatest miracles the world has ever seen. I mean creative miracles, I mean people without limbs the limbs just pop right out. I can’t wait to see see… I just as you talk about the world inside is more real and more important than what’s going on in the outside; on the inside of me I see not just me but I see the average believer that’s listening right now walking in miracles beyond what we’re even talking about.
Tommy: Oh, I have no doubt of that that is the world that is inside of me. I believe that we are on the precipice; we’re on the cusps of seeing miracles like the church has never seen before in its entire history. You know we’ve seen great miracle of healing I’ve seen eyeballs that were growing in people, I’ve seen great miracles of healing but we are on the cusp of seeing something greater than any of us have seen before.
Sid: Tell me one of the most amazing miracles that happened to you in the Philippians.
Tommy: Yeah, this was an amazing miracle I’ve seen many cripples walk but we had gone to a town in the Southern tip of the Boson Island. And there was a group of young people that were opposed to the meetings. And so they were so opposed that we ended up not being able to hold the first nights meeting. So we went out to the country to a little tiny barrio of about 2000 people and set a PA system up and the whole barrio came 2000 people came and jammed that barrio. The little plaza in the center of the Barrio and the Lord said to me and this is unusual because when you’re a healing evangelist you pray for the easy cases first. The Lord said to me “Pray for the hardest case in this place tonight it’s a cripple if you will call them out I will heal them.” So I looked around and so I saw this woman on a stretcher and so I said to the interpreter “What’s wrong with her?” They said “Well, she is unable to walk and I said “God’s going to heal her.” So they brought her up and they kind of dragged her out of bed and put her up on the stretcher in front of me and I said “God is going to heal you tonight; you’re going to be healed and you’re going to walk.” And I asked “What’s wrong with her?” And they said arthritis so I prayed for the arthritis, I rebuked the arthritis as an evangelist will do and she couldn’t walk. And all of a sudden something said inside of me God said to me “Tommy she doesn’t have arthritis you prayed for the wrong disease you must be specific.” So I said to the interpreter “I prayed for the arthritis she wasn’t healed that’s not what’s wrong with her.” Well, they got between Tagalikan and Elik they’d gotten the wrong interpretation and they said “No, she is paralyzed.” She had some kind of a stroke or something and she’s 100% paralyzed in the right side of her body and at least 50% more on the other, she cannot walk.” With that grabbed her and I said “In the name of Jesus I command you to walk.” And she got up and leaped off of that stretcher, began to walk and then she began to run and she ran around and around and around the audience. She as obviously healed there was not doubt about it so I said to her “Well, we’re going to have this big crusade in the capitol city would you come and give your testimony tomorrow night? Well I wanted to be sure she was still healed; oh yea of little faith you know I wanted… so the next morning we drove out to the barrio to see if she and all of the sudden the whole town they saw the little yellow Ford come toward, the whole town 2000 people began to just surge towards us and she was leading them. “I’m still healed, I’m still healed.” And so she came to the audience that night she came to the big meeting and she gave her testimony and when she did these young people who were opposing the meeting said “Oh, the Americano is a rich man he paid her a 100 pesos’ to say that, she wasn’t really healed.” And so it kind of interrupted the meeting and you can understand they didn’t know whether to believe the boys or believe me or to believe the woman. And so the meeting was okay a few people got saved but there were no other miracles. And when we left town to go to the next city all of the sudden I heard the news that the young man who had opposed the meeting came down with the same amount of paralysis 100% in the right side and 50% in his left side. And as far as I know did not walk another day in his life. Now I don’t understand the end of the story all I know it was probably the greatest miracle I’ve ever saw.
Sid: Well the one thing that I do know is if you come against God you’re in big trouble; that was big trouble. You know something that was so amazing to me is tell me about the time your father was dying in Manila.
Tommy: Oh, that was probably the greatest miracle we ever had in our family except my own healing. We had gone to the Philippines on a one way ticket it was interesting how we got there I had sold my Cadillac convertible to pay our way and it paid a one way ticket and enough to stay there a couple of weeks. And we had planned to stay with missionaries and we had everything set to have meetings. We got there and everything fell apart just everything. The place we had to stay the missionary went home; we checked into a hotel we had no money to pay our hotel bill and no ticket back home. And in the middle of all of that my dad laying in that bed contracted some kind of an oriental disease. And got sicker and sicker every day he’d be more and more ill and I’d go into his bedside and want to pray for him. And my dad said “No, no don’t pray for me, pray for our destiny, pray for where we’re going, what we’re going to do.” And then I would say “Let me pray for the finances we need money to go back home; ‘No, no we’re here for a reason, pray for the reason.’” So I walked in there and he wouldn’t let me pray for us, he wouldn’t let me pray for his meal, he wouldn’t let me pray for money, he wouldn’t let me pray for money; he wouldn’t let me pray for a ticket, he wouldn’t let me pray for the hotel bill none of that he wouldn’t let me pray for. Then one day he said “It’s time for God to answer our prayers; that phone is going to ring Tommy and we’re going to be Pastors of Bethel Temple.” I said “That will never happen, I’m 26 years of age they’ll never want me to pastor the largest church in their denomination, they’re not going to want you to pastor you’ve been a businessman you haven’t been a preacher; they’re never going to ask us to pastor the church.” He said “Tommy, that’s the prayer I wanted you to pray destiny; pray for what we’re here to do.” The phone rang and the voice of the Missions Department of Springfield Missouri said “You have been chosen as the new Pastors of Bethel Temple.” Well it solved all of our problems, the money problem, the ticket problem, the place to live problem, then Morris Cerullo walked in and paid our hotel bill.
Sid: But your father was dying I don’t get it.
Tommy: I know I don’t get it either except to know this that God has our destiny in mind. God has a voice that says to us “This is the way, walk yea in it.”
Sid: So was he healed gradually or what happened?
Tommy: Oh no, he was not sick anymore. From the time that that telephone rang and he saw the end of the story at that point he was healed. The fever was gone, the sickness was gone he was perfect.
Sid: Now you have a great love for the nation Israel. The thing that I think is so amazing is in 1948 you were in school and the teacher made an announcement. Tell me the announcement and tell me why it had such an effect on you.
Tommy: It had an effect on me because I lived in the 1930’s when we had all of the prophetic teachers come by our church. A little boy sits there and sermon’s don’t necessarily can’t understand all of them. But when the prophecy teachers would come with all of their charts I could see the pictures I understood that. And they told me that Israel would become a nation, the Jewish people would come back home, and Israel would become a nation again. So I grew up with this knowledge I knew that the Israel would be reborn, I knew the people would come back home; I knew the Jews would be restored to their homeland. So I remember sitting in the classroom in 1948 as a young man in Junior High I remember when the teacher walked in and said “We just heard the announcement Israel is a nation.” And I knew that the word of God was true there was no doubt that what I’d been taught was true. But I had a lot… my dad absolutely love Jewish people. But a Jewish person walked in you would have thought Jesus walked in with my father. He lived to witness to Jews, that was his mission field. We frequented and we would go to Philadelphia and we go to 5th Street and visit all of those little Jewish shops, and every Jew along that street was my dad’s friend. He loved Jews I was taught to love the Jewish people because they were God’s chosen.
Sid: But you know I still… I want to take you back to that… you were in school and a Social Studies teacher you’d been taught your whole life to love the Jew and then one day Israel would be a nation. Well it was impossible for Israel to be a nation but in 1948 tell me the emotion that went on through you inside of your when your teacher says “Israel has just become a nation?”
Tommy: Well I think the first reaction I had is the word of God is true by the time you’re in Junior High and even though I’ve seen the miracles there’s a few dots that begin to come in. All of a sudden I realized this book the word of God is the word of God and it does come to past and I had lived to see one of the greatest events of the history of the world. Sid, I don’t think we can realize even though we say it we can’t realize the immense miracle that God did in the rebirth of Israel, it was a miracle that goes beyond our comprehension.
Sid: I mean it was like if today there was no Israel and tomorrow President Obama says “I declare that Israel is going to be a Jewish homeland.” That would have been impossible for him to say that, it was impossible in ‘48 for Israel to be a nation. But God said “A nation will be formed in one day, and from the 4 corners of the earth the Jews were returned to their homeland.” He even said the ancient language would be spoken in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time I mean Hebrew was just for the holy books, it wasn’t a spoken language today. I mean there were so many miracles that occurred even today why is it that you give your missions money always including going to the Jew first?
Tommy: Well you know God spoke to me and I as you know a lover of Israel Robert Sterns is now the man who is Pastor of the church that I pastured for 50 years. One of the reasons that I wanted Robert here was I wanted to be sure that this church was a recognition of what God was doing with the Jewish people and with Israel. And of course we’re tremendous supporters of Israel. But what I don’t understand is there is not greater miracles except maybe the resurrection that has taken place in the history of the world, than for God not just to save a person, not just to resurrect a person but to resurrect a nation because He made a covenant with them. Tto me it’s the most amazing thing but then I have to realize what God said to Abraham. Abraham said “How do you know, how do I know you’re going to give me this land?” God said “Well I’m going to swear by myself.” And he showed him this picture of the smoking furnace and the pillar of fire representing the Godhead; I’m going to swear by Myself that this is your land.” It is the… how can I believe the covenant of God to heal me if I don’t believe that covenant?
Sid: Tommy our time is slipping away but … When you wrote the book “How to Live Out of a Dream” what did you hope to accomplish?
Tommy: I live in a world that’s different than most preachers; I think I hear things different than most preachers. You know I’m kind a academic when I’m preaching but I can tell you that I don’t want to preach things that I don’t know God has said to me. I want to wake up in the morning and hear Jesus and say the things that He wants me to say. I don’t even want to be on your show and just say things by rote. I want to know that when I speak to you and speak to the world that I’ve heard what God wants me to say. I am firmly convinced that one of the messages that God has for the world today that the problems of our world could be solved, the world could be evangelized if we only heard God’s voice. Most people just don’t hear God’s voice, they don’t listen, their parents tell them you know that’s just your imagination and they cut off the very source of God speaking to them. I want to go out and teach the world to hear God’s voice because I believe its only possible, it’s absolutely mandatory.
Sid: You know there’s so much doom and gloom in the news today that even Christians talking to one another they’re saying “Oh, do you see what’s going on with the morality in America? Do you see what’s going on with the economy? Do you see what’s going on with disease?” But I believe that those that are listening to us right now this is their greatest hour… when we come back I’d like you to teach how we can hear His voice. How we can dream His dreams. I mean you say that it’s simple and I know that it’s simple. Tommy the next broadcast that I do that people will hear I will have just returned from Jerusalem. I’m leaving in a couple of days for Jerusalem. I am going to have a meeting Jerusalem, Israel and we have reservations of 400 people we’re expecting over 500 unsaved Jewish people. What I do is I call it a lecturer on the supernatural and I really I don’t say I’m going to talk about God I say I certainly don’t say I’m going to talk about Jesus. I say I’ve spent the last 35 years studying the paranormal I use that word I want nonbelievers and the supernatural. I’m going to speak an many people are going to be physically healed in their seats, I’ve done this all over the world. But do you realize just as a historic as it was for Israel to become a nation, it is historic for 4 or 500 unsaved Jewish people to hear about the good news of Jesus, witness miracles in their own lives. People will stand up, 30, 40 people are going to stand up and say I’m Jewish nonbelievers I’ve just been physically healed and I believe and I’m believing for 100% a 100% of these Jewish people will stand up and make professions of faith. Now to me that is …has never happened in the history of modern day Israel but we’re in a new time. I’m telling you the move of God has begun.
Sid: I’ll tell you something it difficult to export something you don’t have yourself. And the Messiah came to set the captives free. He came to open up the prison doors, He came… I was reading this morning in Romans the 14th chapter the 17th verse “For the Kingdom of God is not food and drink but it’s righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And very few born again Christians have broken through to freedom, they’ve broken through to maintenance and self-help programs, but there is a difference between maintenance and total freedom. I’m not talking about Christians that perhaps had a drinking problem, or a drug problem, or a smoking problem, I’m saying there are so many little foxes that God says “I want to get rid of because the new wine is being poured out.” He saved the best for last and He wants you free not to walk but to run in the next, in the greatest, and I believe the last move of God’s Spirit in history. “The Kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” You know whether you have the righteousness or not it’s based on the word of God, you know whether you have the peace or not. The Hebrew word, this is Greek of course in the New Testament; the Hebrew word for peace is Shalom and it means completeness in your spirit, soul and body. You know whether you have true Shalom, and you know whether you have joy and if there’s some sort of… I have Craig Hill on the telephone he’s founder of Family Foundations International. And we’re making available this week his book “Freedom from Compulsive Habits Bondage Broken” and his 3 audio cassette teaching series is all connected “Identifying Shame.” And Craig you were talking on yesterday’s broadcast about a man that was set free and then the symptoms came back and he didn’t know what to do about it would you continue that story.
Craig: Sure you know what I’ve found Sid so many times what I’d liken going on in so many peoples lives it’s like smoke, fire and fuel. People have external things going on in their lives such as anger or a temptation to this or that. You know 2 of the most common ones probably are anger and impure thoughts. Really those are just like smoke, this man had an intense temptation back to drugs that is just like smoke and that as we were talking yesterday self-help programs even Christian intense effort programs are really just dealing with the smoke, the obvious point is that where there’s smoke there’s a fire. So we really don’t want to just have a smoke management program trying to manage the smoke so that it doesn’t harm us or harm other people in such an intense way. What we really want to do is we want to find out the source of that smoke which is a fire. So what I found in people’s lives is that when we see smoke there’s always fire. The fire is some kind of wounding experience that happened in people’s lives in the past and in most cases it’s actually in childhood.
Sid: And it’s buried that’s the problem it’s not that someone says “I don’t want to deal with it they don’t even know it so if they don’t recognize that there are symptoms of something deeper they’ll never know about the deeper.
Craig: Right, exactly. And so when you see smoke that smoke isn’t just emanating from no where there’s always a fire. And so there’s a fire that’s there. The fire is some kind of a wounding experience that happened in the past and then they’re fuel to that fire. And the fuel is a deep seated emotional lie that the enemy sows in the hearts of people. And it comes through those wounding experiences that often times that happens in people’s families. And just you just said “People don’t even remember the experience many times but the emotional pain is still there.”
Sid: Well, a lot of people say “But wait a second under the New Covenant if you know who you are you don’t have to dig up all of these things you’re just free.” I’ve heard that preached as long as I’ve been a believer!
Craig: You know the real simple answer to that is “Then there shouldn’t be any smoke!” (Laughing) If there… if that’s true then there shouldn’t be any smoke and what we know is that Yeshua died for those things His blood was shed but we know just like in physical healing that blood has to be applied to the specific area of our life when we do apply that blood. And when we really do allow the Lord to remove that lie then indeed we are free; if the lie is still there it continues to torment deep on the inside.
Sid: Tell me a few of the smoke that you talk about you mentioned anger.
Sid: Everyone knows about drugs and homosexuality and that’s a problem but what are some of the acceptable smokes that people don’t deal with?
Craig: Well you know anger would be one; another one that’s real common especially for men are “Impure thoughts.” Thought lust that they simply don’t want to be there the just don’t tell anybody. Those kind of thoughts torment them but they’re there. Other types of externals that are maybe more acceptable are things like overeating and gossiping, watching television for 6 hours at a time. Jumping on a telephone and just talking and talking and talking those are all mechanisms that our own flesh uses to comfort something deep on the inside.
Sid: Why would it be comfort to talk a lot?
Craig: For some people, and that afflicts women more than men, but it’s not exclusive to women there’s a need on the inside to just talk and talk and talk. And a feeling that “If I can talk about this enough somehow or another I’ll find a solution and it’ll make the pain go away.” So people will just talk and talk and there’s really no goal to it there’s no purpose it’s just a comfort mechanism that’s being used really by the flesh. And the bottom line what we find Sid is that people’s flesh rises up and does something or another to bring a false comfort whenever the soul is out of peace. You know it’s an interesting thing that Hebrews chapter 4 verse 10 it talks about the fact let me just read this scripture. Hebrews 4:10 says “For the one that entered into his rest (This is speaking of God’s rest) has himself also rested from his works as God did from His.” What it’s saying is that a person who’s soul, soul being mind, will and emotions not spirit but their soul. When their soul is not at rest, when you’re soul is not at peace it says that what’s going to happen is that you’re going to busy doing your own works. In other words another way to put that is, whenever something is tormented on the inside, whenever there’s pain on the inside, discouragement, disappointment and emotional lie has been stimulated deep on the inside then your flesh is going to be busy going to work bringing something to bring a comfort to that.
Sid: Now could it be that someone would be busy in religious things would bring them comfort rather than… I mean their motivation is to medicate themselves by doing religious things rather than motivation in doing the kingdom of God.
Craig: We hate to think so but unfortunately that is the case. I ran into numerous missionaries on the field that as the truth were known when you got down to the bottom line the reason they’re doing what they’re doing is because something on the inside feels worthless and their own flesh has risen up with using exactly that mechanism if I can just do enough for God, if I could just do enough in the Kingdom then I could be a valuable person.
Sid: What happened to that fellow that was in drugs and got miraculously set free and then was working in the church helping other drug addicts and then everything came back.
Craig: Yeah 12 years later intense temptation to drugs came back and what we discovered when we just asked the Lord “Where is that coming from, what’s that root again” again God showed him a horrific experience that he had in his own family as a 6 year old being homosexually raped by his brother with his other brother just standing by watching not helping him. The result of that was an intense deep emotional lie imparted on the inside “You’re worthless, you have no value you’re only here to be used and abused by other people.” The result of that his own flesh rose up and used drugs in teenage years to comfort pain of that. Every time he’d be disappointed, hurt, wounded, shamed, made to feel worthless by other people it would stimulate the intense pain on the inside and that deep deep emotional pain “Your worthless.” Well, as we prayed the Lord exposed that to him and when he remembered the experience there was an intense hatred that came up in his heart toward his brother. And we said “Lord what do you want to do with that?” And he had the most amazing experience where the Lord Jesus Himself lifted that hatred off of him and said “I died for that, that’s why I died you’re not to wear that, you’re not to carry that anymore.” And the Lord Himself ministered to that, removed that and then he asked the Lord a key question “Lord on that day when my brother did that to me the devil was able to impart to me the answer to a deep question ‘Who am I?’ And the devil’s answer was ‘You’re nobody, you’re nothing, your worthless.’” And he said “Lord today I want You to answer that question.” And you know Sid the Lord just ministered to him the most beautiful thing about who he was. He said “Son, whose who I see you to be, you’re a royal prince; I love you you’re my son, you weren’t created to be abused by other people you were created to be loved, to be valued and to bring life to other people.” And here’s the most amazing thing, after the Lord ministered that to him the temptation to drugs was instantly gone and it was maintenance free, it wasn’t something he had to struggle to try to not think about anymore it just literally was not there. And again the temptation to drugs was the smoke just an external, the fire was the intense experience that happened to him. The fuel was the deep seated lie “You’re worthless.” And I know that we’ll probably be out of time shortly but tomorrow I would like to talk more about what that fuel is in people’s hearts, how it gets there and what we actually practically do so that the Lord can remove that fuel deep in our hearts.
Sid: Well, that’s the key, what about someone that’s fearful of speaking in public could that be something, smoke as you call it?
Craig: Many times that’s smoke because we know that fear is not coming from God. “God did not give us a spirit of fear” the Bible said. So many times people struggle with all kinds of fears that are….
Sid: Ah, we’re out of time…
Sid: My guest by way of telephone at his office in Lynwood, Washington, the Head of the Centennial Group George Otis, Jr. Perhaps your familiar with his father his father started Middle East Television. He started TV and radio throughout the Middle East and radio throughout the world. George was raised in that environment and he had his own encounter with the Lord which in a very supernatural fashion. God has been directing him especially in the area of documenting where entire cities are impacted for the Lord. Not just a few churches on fire for the Lord, but entire cities… George I have to tell you most people, most believers feel that “That’s not going to happen until the millennium.” What would you say to them?
George: Well, the good news is that these examples that were documenting are places that they can visit. They just need to find a week of time or a few days time buy a plane ticket and they can actually go and walk the streets of these communities and see what community transformation looks like. It is a faith building experience more and more people are actually visiting some of the locations that we’ve highlighted. And the communities that we’ve highlighted on our videos represent only a fraction of the case studies that we’re presently aware of which are now somewhere in the vicinity of 170 to 180 different locations.
Sid: Okay you were listing yesterday reasons why here in the west we don’t experience what’s happening in other areas, and the one that I have to trigger of all of them is the one called lack of hunger. Why do we have a lack of hunger here in the west is it that we have too many toys?
George: Yes, that’s a big part of it Sid we… you know how sometimes people summarize the 10 Commandments down into the first two. We can summarize I think the obstacles the transformation down into 2 things external distractions and internal offenses. And if we can overcome those 2 problems then we will see in our midst the Lord working in the same measure that He’s working in many regions and nation’s cities today.
Sid: So what’s your scenario how is this going to be overcome; to have us become a 3rd world country that will sure do it.
George: That sometimes is what God will do and we need to see this sometimes as the grace and mercy of God. C.S. Lewis put it this way once he said “God’s love marshals me where I would go if I truly knew what I wanted.” So often we only think we know what we want it really isn’t what we want. And if God graciously sometimes highjacks the direction of our lives and our ministries and says “Listen, trust me I know where you would go if you truly knew what you wanted and I’m going to take you there.” And I think that what is happening today, in this country, that we are… we’re we’ve seen religious inertia become more valuable to us than genuine spiritual change. In other words if we’re active, if we’re just busy if things are happening all around us and there’s a lot of sound and energy and bodies we slip into this deception that were actually making progress. I’ll tell you how I would put it, I think that we are suffering from a form of deism. We in the west are more products of the enlightenment than we are in the book of Acts. We think that God got things all started He wound it all up and then He’s kind of left the scene for us to go ahead and figure out all of the fine print and details on our own. See you’ve got 100’s and 100’s of men and woman of western church today that are running like chickens with their head cut off trying to figure out what ought to be done rather than realizing God has an intense interest in the details and is about the details. So I think this issue of hunger requires us to get alone with God saying “God would you increase my appetite for those things that are proven to attract Your presence.”
Sid: Because you can’t work it up yourself… you know the hunger even comes from God.
George: That’s right it does and when we do that maybe it’s a hunger for unity or for holiness or for humility or for faith or for prayer or whatever it might be. It’s not that we have no appetite it’s that we have a bird like appetite. It’s like going into a restaurant after we had fellowship with the saints and we sit down to a meal and the waiter or waitress comes over and says “What can I bring you?” And we haven’t even cracked the menu so we send them away and then the 3rd time they come back we’re embarrassed because we still don’t know and we just say off handedly “You know just bring me a cup of coffee.” That’s the response in the western church to the Holy Spirit who wants to bring us so much more we settle on a cup of coffee and a spiritual caffeine buzz; it’s just not going to take us where we need to go and where we truly would go if we knew what God could do for us.
Sid: Well, for example whet their appetite if you will so that people would at least pray “God give me the desire for unity, give me the desire to pray with my brothers and sisters so I can see the same thing.” Tell me about one of the cities on your transformation video Cali, Columbia. When I think of Columbia I think of drugs.
George: Well, most people do and that the extent of the reputation that was generated several years ago in the city of Cali which became the epicenter of the global cocaine cartel. There were over 100,000 people in this city that were on the direct, not the indirect, payroll of the cocaine cartels. This was a multibillion dollar enterprise. And I’ve seen their compounds down there and unless you’ve seen it you just can’t believe it. They were small cities within the city within their own air strips helipads their own shopping malls, their own restaurants. These drug lords would go to a restaurant in a city find a place they liked and would hire the cook and bring him into their compounds to start these private little restaurants. They would have underground tunnels connecting up to 25 massive mansions. And that would be only one compound and there were multiple ones within the city. They owned the police, they owned the banks, they owned the sport franchises, they ran everything. And so you can imagine what life in this city would have been like and to make matters worse the Body of Christ was so disunified, disunited, that one person told me Ministerial Association in the city of Cali several years ago consisted of one box of files that nobody wanted. (Laughing) That’s where they were at. And so in the midst of all 15 people a day were being murdered it was a mess. A few believers got so desperate they cried out to God and they said “You know we have to move the church together to call out to God to repent because that’s our only hope.” So they called an event in the municipal stadium there and to their surprise nearly 25,000 people showed up for an all night prayer vigil and they asked…
Sid: But you know what? They were desperate.
George: They were.
Sid: And that’s what we were just talking, here in the west we’re not desperate!
George: That’s exactly right we… we’re under the mistaken assumption that like the church at Sardis, and like the church at Laodicea, that we are in real good shape. And you’ll remember that what the Lord said to the Church at Sardis “You have a reputation of being alive but in fact you are dead.” And then He goes on to say “Now strengthen that which remains.” And what He’s saying there is “Return first love, move away from program and back to presence.” Because only God is capable of doing the heavy lifting that is required to see the community transformed. I believe that human programming and human charisma are adequate to see church growth, but they’re inadequate to see community transformation. Only God can do the heavy lifting as I said to bring that about. In the city of Cali, Columbia when they gathered together to cry out to God they began to initially talk to God about the violence problems. And that very weekend there headlines blazoned “No homicides” for the first time and as long as anybody could remember…
Sid: Are you saying the weekend these 25,000 Christians gathered for prayer there were no homicides?
George: It was that very same weekend that they talked to God about that issue. The city newspaper “El Pais,” and this is a community of about 3 million people headlined “No Homicide.” There had never been in anybody’s memory a weekend where nobody had been murdered in this city…
Sid: Oh, they figured something out real fast. George we’re out of time today.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah, why? Well there’s so many people that talk about friendship evangelism and let’s wait until someone asks me about the Messiah. Well, let me tell you something my guest right now Hal Lindsey if he with his knowledge of end-time events and things happening so quickly that he does a world-wide television show that is on a 24 hour delay and he said “Sid it’s a too big a delay things are happening too rapidly.” Now on yesterday’s broadcast I’ll get a lot of people upset with me Hal if I don’t ask you the question. I wanted to know what you think of what is considered by the words of President Bush our good friend the nation Saudi Arabia.
Hal: I think that Saudi Arabia is probably one of the most dangerous of all of the nations in Islam. And the reason is because they have some of the most dedicated clerics to promote a radical form of Islamic fundamentalism. And it’s called Wahabism and you just look 15 of the 19 terrorist who struck the United States in the September 11, 2001 were Saudis. And you look at Al-Qaida; Al-Qaida the leadership is mostly composed of Saudis so they’re very very dangerous.
Sid: Now, in your video you happened to comment on what recently happened with President Bush when Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia visited him and he had some company; tell me about that.
Hal: Well, he had some Emmas with him that remained on the plane who had called for destruction of the United States. They were on the same plane with the Saudi Prince and one of them remained on the plane because is he’d have gotten off he would have gotten arrested. But these were some of the clerics of Islam from Saudi Arabia who have been the most prolific in their condemnation of the United States.
Sid: I’ve got a quote here by one of the men on the plane. “I am against America until this life ends until the Day of Judgment; I am against America even if the stones liquefy. My hatred of America if part of it was just contained in the universe the whole universe would collapse. America is the root of all evils, our good friends Saudi Arabia on the same plane they came in?
Hal: Yes, that is absolutely amazing but that is true. And this is why you know I love our President I believe he’s truly a believer but he is perhaps fatally flawed in his understanding of Islam. He stills keeps saying that Islam is a religion of peace; it is not! You know people say “Well, you know there are radicals that come out of Christianity just as there are radicals that come out of Islam.” This true but here’s the difference the more a person follows literally what the Bible says and the more he follows Jesus Christ the more he will be peaceful. But the more a person follows the Koran and follows the example of Mohammed the more he will become a terrorist.
Sid: You know Hal I’m concerned about the Trojan horse in America of these people that are involved in Islam. I heard recently that their latest strategy is to go to major American universities, offer them tremendous sums of money to build buildings on their campuses to make them schools of Islam. They then hire the whole faculty. And I’m told in many of the mosques in America that preaching this virulent brand of terrorism. Are you aware of these things that are going on right under our nose?
Hal: Oh, absolutely I follow them closely and they’re of great concern to me. You see the Saudi’s with a very very great assortment of money and they seek to buy their way in. And I believe that we just have to recognize that their goal is to convert the United States to Islam.
Sid: Are they succeeding in the United States, I know that their succeeding in the prisons.
Hal: Well, I have a cousin who is a chaplain in the prisons in Texas and Oklahoma and he said the greatest threat he sees is that they’re converting to Islam all kinds of prisoners that this almost a plague that their converting so many prisoners to Islam. And you know they bring with them the ferocity of their criminal life and it’s conducted into a sanctified form of hatred for America.
Sid: Okay, I understand how they’ve been successful in the prisons but how come what is the attraction of Islam to nations like Africa, places like Southeast Asia, Philippines, what is the attraction there of Islam?
Hal: Well, it has an enormous attraction particularly in Southeast Asia you know there’s a kind of a religious vacuum there and mankind has to have some kind of religion. They’re religious my nature and so it has had a tremendous appeal particularly Southeast Asia. For instance Indonesia is the most populous country of Islam in the world. And also it is the new foundation for Islam.
Sid: Well, tell me about…you state the Oklahoma bombings have direct ties to the Philippians, I haven’t heard that in the news!
Hal: This is something that I think is really being covered over deliberately because the perpetrators of that bombing in Oklahoma married a Philippine girl, he went back to the Philippians spent some time there with some of her relatives who are members of the radical violent Islamic group that are in the Philippines. So it’s believed that there’s a connection I know that World Net Daily has a book that they’re featuring that connects the dots on that.
Sid: Hm. Now you go into a lot of detail in your video “Evidence of the End Time” having to do with Africa. I mean I don’t understand why our news and our media are not making a big deal out of all of the non-Muslims that are being killed especially Christians by Muslims in Africa.
Hal: Yeah, this is something that is a travesty I mean you know we report all kinds of human injustices around the world but when it comes to the slaughter and the massacre of Christians by Muslims in the Africa it’s virtually glossed over. And I’ve heard one of the reasons is because it’s so dangerous correspondence don’t go there. But whatever the cause the spread of Islam in Africa is rampant.
Sid: I mean how large is Islam in Africa?
Hal: Well, and this is what is really amazing we talk about whose really responsible for sending slaves to the Americas and so forth. Well, it was the Muslims who would go in and conquer the African tribes and send them on these slave ships
Sid: I wasn’t aware of that.
Hal: Oh yeah it was Muslims that did that they were the worst slavers in history. And yet now these very ones that they used to prey about are being converted to Islam. And it’s a very decisive force in Africa. It’s one of the only really transnational organizing movements in all of Africa but its moving fast. And Ezekiel very definitely talks about the fact the descendants of Cush and Put would be a very big part of the force that launches the War of Armageddon.
Sid: And push and put…
Hal: But the black African’s and Put is the father of the North African people such as Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco and Mauritania; those are all descendants of this tribe called Put. So and it’s interesting that all of those are Muslim countries.
Sid: How about Russia? I mean we know in the Bible in the last days how does Russia network with Islam?
Hal: Well, Ezekiel chapter 38 and also Daniel Chapter 11 verse 40 – 45 indicates that it would be this great power to the north. In fact Ezekiel says that they are the people that are to the extreme north of Israel in the last days. Well there’s only one nation to the extreme north of Israel and that’s Russia. It says that they’re going to make a strategic mistake, God will cause them to do it and they will align themselves with these Muslim confederacy, all of the nations around Israel which are Muslim. And they will supply them with weapons and they will lead them in the last great attack against Israel. And it will be because of the enormous wealth and prestige of Israel that they attack. So this is why I say something dramatic has to happen to Israel soon to give them enormous wealth.
Sid: Okay what about a Palestinian State based on your study of scripture, what your intuitive sense, will there be a Palestinian State before it’s over?
Hal: I guess there could be but I am so against it that it’s hard for me to accept. I don’t know if there will be one but it is possible. But I do know this that a big point is made in Ezekiel 38 about the people of Israel making a covenant with this Roman leader the anti-Christ. And they will be able to live without walls and you know this is talking about conditions in the last days.
Sid: Well, of course they’re putting in the big wall right now.
Hal: Yeah, cities are no longer walled but they’re talking about putting a wall….
Sid: Oh, we’re out of time…
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dr. James Richards I’m interviewing him on his book “How to Stop the Pain.” Pain maybe in evitable but suffering optional, but what’s even more exciting to me is there are walls between husbands and wives, children and parents, wives and husbands, pastors and members of the congregations, employers and employees, schoolmates everything these walls… and God is supernaturally showing us how these walls can come down and we don’t have to keep that pain Yeshua took the pain for us. But one of the most fascinating things Jim in your book has to do with the correlation between sickness and judgment. On yesterday’s broadcast you were saying that physiologically when we make judgments we open ourselves it’s almost like a door is open for sickness explain this.
Jim: Exactly that’s right and incredibly the mind always seeks equilibrium. In other words, the moment you pass a judgment everything in your mind and in your brain actually goes to work to prove that it’s true. There’s a little bundle of nerves…
Sid: Give me an example of a judgment and then explain what you’re explaining.
Jim: Okay the judgment is assuming to know why someone is doing something. Of course the brain actually does this on any assumption it doesn’t have to be a judgment. I’ll give you a good example let’s say you look down the street here and you a lady and she kind of dressed maybe what you might consider a little like a temptress or something.
Sid: And you see, hay not down the street you see them in church.
Sid: And you form that judgment, that everyone can relate there.
Jim: You say “This is why she is this way she’s loose she’s immoral.” And you watch her as she walks down the street and you notice that she’s walking up to men and talking to them. So you’re absolutely sure then that she’s a prostitute and that she’s trying to sell herself to these men. And everything that you begin to see there’s a little bundle of nerves called the reticular activating system at the base of the skull…
Sid: And you know the devil doesn’t even have to function in this you’re doing just fine you’re doing his job. (Laughing)
Jim: You’re doing his job and he’s taking a little break and laughing at you. Well the moment that you pass a judgment or make an assumption the reticular activating system starts changing the function of the brain and you go into selective processing and you begin to only see and notice those things that support your judgment or your opinion. So now you’re seeing all of this stuff that tells you this woman’s a prostitute. Now when she gets up to you she walks up to you you’re ready for her to proposition you she hands you a track and you find out that she’s a Christian and she was witnessing to those people and you didn’t even notice that she was carrying a Bible, and you didn’t even notice any of these other factors all you noticed would be those things that would support your judgment.
Sid: Selective editing.
Jim: And we do that I don’t know if you’ve ever done it you go to the grocery store and you’re wife says go pick up this stuff and make sure you get this brand and make sure that it doesn’t have any salt in it. You run in the grocery store you look at the label you pick it up you run back home; you open the bag and you proudly hand it to your wife and she’s like “What did you get this for?” And you look at it and its like “That’s not what I bought.” But you and I both know that you can look at something and believe that you’re reading a different label.
Sid: So we humans because of Adams original sin, our disposition is to judge and when we judge what happens now physiologically?
Jim: When we judge… here’s the incredible thing here’s the place that judgment and sickness comes together is basically the judgments we pass about ourselves and even the judgments that we pass about God. If I’m… see guilt brings the expectation of punishment. And so when I commit when I commit a particular sin when I struggle with something and I pass a judgment on God you know and maybe things begin to go wrong in my life I say “This is why this is happening God is doing this to me.” You know we run a substance abuse clinic for years and we found that you can’t get people off drugs and you can’t get people well if they believe God’s doing it to them or they believe that it’s punishment for something they’ve done.
Jim: Now what happens every cell in the body actually has intelligence. With the advent of our understanding of DNA this has become common knowledge in the scientific community. And you figure that there’s enough intelligence in a cell to clone a human being possibly, we know that they can clone an animal so there’s a lot of intelligence there. Well that intelligence in every cell is not just intellectual intelligence it’s also emotional intelligence. So anything that you believe at a very deep level every cell in your body believes it and works to make it happen. So if I’m in expectation of punishment coming to me from something that I have done the fact that I’m expecting that, the fact that I have…
Sid: Isn’t that what Job was saying when he said “The thing that I feared…”
Sid: “…has come upon me?”
Jim: Exactly, that’s what the children of Israel did. They said the tested or tempted God they put God on trial they passed the judgment that says “He could not be trusted.” And that’s why they fell in the wilderness. So the person that believes something every cell in their body works and if you believe for example that you’re unworthy of success then every time you have the opportunity to succeed you’re going to have a conflict with your boss and something’s going to go wrong. And you can scream at the devil you can pray more but the truth is until you release your judgments and renew your mind it’s going to keep going that way.
Sid: Someone that’s accident prone that might be the reason.
Jim: Exactly. Interesting thing, I don’t know if we have enough time to go into this, but I had a problem that where every time I had an off day I got sick. I either got sick, felt bad or injured myself. And so this went on for years and finally after several years in my lightning quick mind I said “There’s a problem, there’s something wrong here.”
Jim: I spent some time in prayer and meditation just seeking God and the Lord brought to my memory a time when I was a child and my father had come home and beat my mother all night. And the next morning she was getting ready to go to work I was extremely emotional I was crying and I was pleading with her “Please do not go to work.” And she said “Son as long as I’m able I have to work.” Now I developed a belief from that that said “The only reason not to work is to not be able.” Out of that belief every time I’d get an off day I’d get sick or injure myself and when I realized that all of this was emerging out of my own heart it was as simple as releasing that belief choosing a new belief and moving on and bringing an end to it and it doesn’t happen anymore.
Sid: Do you think that all sicknesses is a result of what you just described?
Jim: No, I don’t think that all sicknesses are we have physiologically things that happen to us. I have found that the ability to recover from sickness is directly related to our beliefs and particularly our beliefs about worthiness.
Sid: Give me another specific example.
Jim: A specific example?
Jim: I have had dozens of people in my clinic that this has happened to. A person comes in… I’ll give you one on weight loss this is
Sid: Oh, I want that one.
Jim: There’s somebody that comes in their… and this actually happened a lady she was probably 300 pounds overweight she had tried everything in the whole world nothing ever worked. I began to work with her and she had lost about 80 or 100 pounds. Suddenly she just loses her mind, metaphorically, goes crazy goes on an eating binge disappears won’t come back into the clinic. Now ultimately what I was eventually able to discover in working with her was that she had a belief that if she was thin that she would get into sin because she had a promiscuous past. And she had passed this judgment about herself and about why I do this and why you know why it would happen to me if I looked thin again. And so even though she was getting the desired results she sabotaged it. Actually studies show that most people’s fatal illness occur at their moments of great opportunity.
Sid: Explain that.
Jim: Really most people don’t believe that they deserve to retire they’ve worked all of their life they don’t feel qualified, they don’t feel it’s right that they have something. Like in my example I grew up believing that I was unlovable. So when I would get in a relationship the moment the relationship would begin to become good I would destroy it and run. See the same thing happened with sickness, it happens with finances if we live out our beliefs and judgments and literally can’t see life any other way.
Sid: Jim how did you come to all of this understanding? This is brilliant it really is.
Jim: Well again you know fortunately for me I wasn’t raised in church so I didn’t have a lot of preconceived ideas. And when I read the Bible I didn’t read it so much from a mystical point of view I read it from a very practical point of view. And really all of this came out of number 1 the pages of the Bible, and then me applying this to my personal life. Then taking it into the lives of the people that I have ministered to for these 30 years.
Sid: Quick give me a testimony of somebody that’s read your book and what’s happened to them.
Jim: This doesn’t have anything to do with healing but one particular testimony pops in mind was a man who calls me and he said “You know something my wife and I have been reading your material.” And he said “We’ve been married we’ve come from a strict background not a lot of love and compassion shown in his background.” He said “You know for the first time in 21 years out of her own initiative she put her arms around me and told me she loved me.”
SID: To me, it’s absolutely unbelievable. A large auditorium, Jerusalem, Israel, not filled with Christians, but filled with Jewish people that do not know Jesus. I mean, 550 unsaved Jewish people showed up for a lecture on the supernatural. And we had Ladonna Taylor, who when she plays the violin the atmosphere of Heaven invaded that auditorium. What did you feel there Warren?
WARREN: Oh it was incredible. I mean, it was just the, like you said the atmosphere of Heaven and healing was in the wings. You could feel the healing spirit of God moving.
SID: In fact, right after she played the mini concert, I had immediate words of knowledge and unsaved Jewish all over the auditorium stand up and say, I’ve been healed. In fact, God just told me someone’s back was just healed. Let’s go to the first segment of Ladonna playing.
[violin music, people singing]
SID: You know, just before the show started, I got an email. A woman was in this group, Jewish, unsaved, and I had a word of knowledge, as I just had, someone’s back was healed. And she didn’t have a problem. But her son had such a bad back condition he had been in bed for a month. And she said, “Yeshua, if you’re real, I want my son to be healed.” She gets home and she can’t believe her eyes. Her son is standing, cooking a meal, and she said, “What happened?” And he said, “I don’t know, but at such and such time,” the exact time she prayed, the exact moment she prayed, “all the pain left me.” I mean, we are serving such an amazing God, Warren. But the altar call, I’ve given altar calls for years, but something happened on this altar call with Jewish people in Jerusalem I personally have never witnessed in my life. You explain it, Warren.
WARREN: Oh it was incredible. I mean, in a church if you see a few people go forward you’re like, wow, isn’t this wonderful.
SID: We got letters at the last time I said how many Jewish people were saved in Jerusalem, we got letters of people accusing us of fudging the figures. And what did you tell them, see it in the video
WARREN: We said, we shot it with seven cameras. You can count them for yourself. But here’s what happened, Sid. It’s like they were just swept up. The whole group of them, just, boom, were swept up. It’s like I didn’t see hardly any seats that were remaining where people were sitting in them. It was the most amazing altar call I had ever seen. And I had to keep pinching myself. We were in Jerusalem. These were Jews coming to Messiah.
SID: Look, I don’t want those watching us right now to pinch themselves. So let’s go with the rolling.
SID: The Lord has already given you his shalom, his completeness in your spirit, in your soul and in your body. In the name of the Sar Shalom, the Prince of Peace, Yeshua [Hebrew], Yeshua, the Messiah of Israel.
SID: When I returned to my hotel from Jerusalem, there was a taxi driver, and he’s Russian and he didn’t speak any English. But I was so high in the spirit that I had to keep talking about Jesus. I couldn’t keep quiet. But he didn’t understand anything I was saying. So I took myself out, I called Warren and another friend, Ryan, from the ministry, and I said, “We’ll be in the hotel in a few minutes. Get me a translator.” They must have thought, again, meshuga, a little crazy. But they got me a translator. The translator they get is the bellhop and he speaks Russian. There’s only one problem. He’s an atheist. He wants nothing to do with God. So I force him to translate and he’s sharing the Gospel to the taxi driver who accepts the Lord. This atheist who hates that I believe in Jesus is leading this Russian to the Lord. I mean, God must have such a sense of humor. But Warren, in all seriousness, we are at what the Bible calls the fullness of the Gentile age. There’s two scriptures that’s talked about in the New Testament. The first scripture is found in Luke 21:24, in which Jesus said that, “The fullness of the Gentiles will occur when Jerusalem is in Jewish possession.” Well Jerusalem is in Jewish possession. The second time it’s mentioned is Romans 11:25, which says, “Partial blindness has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles.” I’m telling you, the scales are coming down. I’m telling you this is the set time to favor Zion. I’m telling you Jesus is coming back soon.
WARREN: Sid, you know, I am reminded, in Romans 11, it talks about how great it was, really that the Jewish people didn’t receive Yeshua, because it opened up the covenant promises to the Gentile, to the nations of the world. And it says, that was great, but how much greater when they begin to come in, and they are coming in right now. What it means is resurrection life, life from the dead, we’re ready for the greatest revival about to happen as more and more Jewish people come in to know their Messiah.
SID: When it says “life from the dead,” I take that literally. I believe that people are going to into hospitals and clear out, they’re going to go into morgues and clear out the dead people. They’re going to clear the dead people out of hospitals. When Jewish people come back, you mark God’s word, it will cause life from the dead. Well, so I’m on the air playing, I am basking in the Glory of God. God you’re so good. I mean, I can’t perform any miracles. I’m just like you. If God didn’t show up and demonstrate his power with miracles, that wouldn’t have happened. But this is the set time to favor Zion. And so I finally get to sleep on the plane going back to the United States. Two in the morning, it starts bumping a little, and they get on the P.A. and they say, “Put your seatbelts on.” And my seatbelt is stuck under the seat. And I’m pulling, I’m pulling hard for all that I’m worth, and I can’t get it out. So I go to the flight attendant. I say, “I have a problem” and I’m saying, oh that devil, he really got me. Oh no, no, no, no. My God, your God, our God is bigger than any devil. God had a plan. So I’m awake already. I let him struggle with the seatbelt. I don’t know how it could get so stuck. And I see a woman and she doesn’t look Jewish. She doesn’t look Israeli. She’s a flight attendant. And I say to her, “Are you Israeli?” And she said, yes. I said, “How come you don’t have an accent?” She said, “Well I lived in the United States for a while.” And then I started talking to her about the Messiah. I wish I had had one of those reality show cameras on me at the time. Because I said, “You know I happen to be a Jew and I believe a little different than some Jews.” “Oh, what do you believe in?” I said, “Well I believe in one God. He has a name, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And I don’t believe there’s a Messiah for the Jews, a Messiah for the Christians, a Messiah for the Muslims. I believe in one Messiah, the Jew, Yeshua.” And the reason I do is because the Jewish prophet Jeremiah, in the 31st chapter, said, “Behold the days come and I will make a [Hebrew], a new covenant,” meaning that the Mosaic Covenant, it goes on to say, we didn’t even follow it anyway, we couldn’t follow it. So God is going to make this [Hebrew] and it’s going to have three things that the Mosaic Covenant did not have and we cannot follow the Mosaic Covenant anymore because you need a temple, you need animal sacrifices, and the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. So you have two choices. You can either follow Jeremiah, the Jewish prophet, or follow the rabbis. I like Jeremiah. Jeremiah says these three things: “First the Torah will not be so much outside to fill in the seeds”, that’s fringes. It’s not an external. It says, the Torah will be inside of you. The second thing it says, your sins won’t just be covered as they are at Yom Kippur. But God says, I’ll remember your sins no more.” I mean, you could have been the worst prostitute in town and God says, if you repent of your sins, tell God you’re sorry, and He will wipe it away as if they’ve never existed. But the third is the best. That would have been enough, as we say at Passover. But the third part of the New Covenant that Jeremiah 31 says is, “You will know God.” It’s the same “know” that Adam knew Eve. It’s intimacy with God. And I’m going to tell you something. If God is for you, who can be against you? The times we’re living in right now are the times you must know God. You must know. So they finally fix my seat. I go back to my seat. I give her my web page for Jewish people that don’t know the Messiah, TheyThoughtforThemselves.com. She’s going to go there. She said, “Everything you said excites me.” We’re in a new day, new day for you, too. You come unto this new covenant. Whether you’re Jewish or Gentile, we all come in the same way. There’s no other name given unto man in which we must be saved, but the name of Yeshua, Jesus the Messiah. Tell God you’re sorry for your sins. Believe the blood of Jesus washed them all away and invite Jesus inside now.
SID: Now how would you like to have been caught up out of your body, go right through the roof of your house as if it wasn’t there, escorted by angels into Heaven and be chosen to hear a discussion between God and the Messiah about the End Times. Carlos, tell me one thing you eavesdropped on.
CARLOS: I remember hearing clearly that they talked about the difficult hour that lay ahead and how the church would, given the opportunity, to be purged and the opportunity to really experience the greatness of what still lays ahead, the greatest outpouring of the Spirit of God. But clearly, the way the download I was receiving is, I heard all that, reminded me very much of the readings that, you know, you do on an annual basis as a regular Christian on the End Times Book of Revelation, the Book of Daniel. So I remember listening to this conversation and I was brought to my memory was all the judgments that are coming based upon the Book of Revelation and also Joel, Book of Daniel. But I received and I felt like this is an hour, an opportunity for the church to be stronger and to understand the importance to be ready and alert. Because my sense is, for the most part, the body of Christ for the most part is not prepared for what is about to take place.
SID: Okay. Do you think you’ll be alive when all this happens?
CARLOS: I firmly believe that I will be alive. I believe that my eyes will physically see the coming of the Lord. And when you study church history, those who remain on fire for the Lord, even the Apostle Paul and Peter, they believed in their day, in their hour that they would see the coming of the Messiah, the coming of the Lord. And I feel like the church must understand once again End Time eschatology. We must be students, we must understand the signs, the seasons, the hour that we’re living in so that we can live an urgent life. And when we have that understanding of sense of urgency our hearts, our lives, are completely given to the Lord. I feel that there’s a greater surrender as a result of understanding the hour that we’re living in.
SID: Okay. But then the most terrifying thing that ever happened to Carlos happened to him in Heaven. What happened?
CARLOS: What happened is they went from discussing about the urgency of the hour, they went from discussing about the greatest outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the greatest miracles, not all gloom and doom, there’s great hope. But then the hope culminates in this incredible manifestation that I believe the Spirit of God is doing right now, and that is this. I heard the Father say to Jesus, “It’s time, Son, go get your bride.”
SID: What did that mean to you?
CARLOS: At first, I was shocked and stunned. But I had this doubt and this understanding, and revelation that I as part of the Church of Christ, in that moment, I was not prepared and I was not ready to really see him come back. Even though we may have the right confession, we may have the right lingo, we may say the right words, but in reality for the most part, many of us in the church, including myself at that time, I was not ready, was not prepared. And so when those words came out of the Father to the Son, I remember this, it was the most horrible fear. I call it the terror of the Lord, the most horrible fear and terror that I had ever felt. It was like those words rolled out of his mouth like a ball, a ball of fire. And I remember those words just rolling towards me, and I knew it was going to hit my midsection. And when it hit my body, I remember trembling violently and I couldn’t contain myself, and I felt that these words, something was going to come out my mouth. I tried to hold myself back and I couldn’t. I remember yelling out loud and feeling the condition of my heart when I cried out, “No! We’re not ready!” That’s what I did. I raised my fists.
SID: You weren’t even thinking this. It came out from your innermost, this man is not ready. What about us? I’ll tell you what. He was downloaded from Heaven how to be ready. Now when he says “ready”, he doesn’t mean repenting of sins. He repented of his sins. He doesn’t mean having the Messiah live inside of him. The Messiah lives inside of him. When he said, “I’m not ready,” he meant, “I am not prepared to be involved in the next, in the greatest and perhaps the last move of the presence of God, of the mercy of God on Planet Earth.” And he was commissioned on what he had to do to be ready and what you have to do to be ready. By the way, I heard something about you. Someone has pain in their neck and their back, and I tell you, in the Messiah of Israel’s name, if you have a pain in your neck, move your head. You’ll see the pain is gone. Or stand up and bend over, you’ll see the pain is gone. And I’m going to be right back and tell you how you will not miss the moment of your visitation.