Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand God’s marvelous gift of grace. But you know what, there is a hyper-grace movement that is totally distorting God’s wonderful gift of grace. So I said “Who do I know that would be the best person to analyze what is true Biblical grace, and what is wrong with the hyper-grace movement?” Of course it was called the no brainer it’s my friend Dr. Michael Brown. Dr. Brown for those of you that aren’t familiar with him; he has a PhD in Near Eastern Languages from New York University. He speaks, reads, or writes a dozen languages. He has been in the scriptures for decades in the original languages. Mike I’m sure you had a burden before we even contacted you about this hyper-grace message that’s going around. When did you first… were concerned about this?
Michael: Well it’s because I love the message of grace so much and I’m so jealousy for God’s true grace. I started to get burdened when I saw just some distortions, some mixture that was coming with the grace message. But in particular the last year everywhere I turn I’m running into this. Everywhere I turn I’ll quote a scripture about holiness and purity and someone will come back to me “That’s legalism, why are you throwing this under me, I’m under grace.” And I thought that’s a strange response. I would talk about let’s press in, let’s go after the Lord and let’s seek Him. And they’d throw something back at me “That’s works. I’m under grace.” And then they’d start using all the same terms. “I’m not into behavior modification, I’m not into sin management.” And I thought “Where are these coming from?” And so the more I began to look at it the more I saw that there were a number of books, a number of teachers and a number of ministries that all felt that they were part of a “grace revolution” or a “grace reformation.” Some of them say that there have been things hidden from the church 100′s and 100′s of years and now we have recovered it and we are putting this out. And I became increasingly alarmed when I saw the extreme claims that were being made. I became increasingly alarmed when I saw people being damaged. Then Sid it was like a flood pastors, leaders, believers literally from all over the America and different countries saying “Mike you’ve got to speak about this, you’ve got to write about this, this is splitting our churches. This is confusing our people, families are being torn apart.” And I saw some being touched by a great revelation of grace. And I’m so jealous for it because we can never for a split second down play, despise, denigrate God’s grace. We live by grace 24-7 but I saw it being mixed with dangerous error.
Sid: Let me tell you what concerns me the most at this point. The Bible says “Without holiness we will not even see God.” And what the affect it’s having, even the ones that are not really in heresy, which most of them have a little bit of this heresy, is that when people start watching the TV shows, reading the books what happens is that barometer for holiness goes down and they start compromising. I don’t want to share testimonies of men and women of God that have done things like leaving their wife and marrying their secretary. But here’s the thing, that’s happened even before the hyper-grace message.
Michael: Hm hm.
Sid: But it’s justifying it, that’s what’s bothering me.
Michael: Right, and here’s the thing every hyper-grace teacher that I’ve read and listened to many I’ve dialoged with; I’ve reached out to them and said “I’m writing about this, I’m quoting you do I understand you correctly are you willing to reconsider your position?” And we’ve gone back and forth and I say “No, this is where I stand.” Here’s the deal though everyone that I speak to they say the same thing “No, no, no grace is not a license for sin” when you understand grace rightly it helps you to overcome sin.” I said “But the problem is when you teach that God has already forgiven all our future sins before we’ve ever commit them; when you teach we never have to confess our sins to God; when you teach that the Holy Spirit never convicts us of sin anymore; when you tell us that anything where you have to exert some sort of effort to please God or obey God that that’s all wrong that that the flesh that that’s not grace.” Of course you’re setting people up for destruction; of course you’re opening the door for deception to come in. And I’ve told them “We’re not telling people that grace gives them a license to sin your very message is telling it in other ways.” And that’s the mixture, God’s true grace Titus 2nd chapter teaches us to say “No to ungodliness.” God’s true grace changes us from the inside out. Now here’s what is so important I didn’t call the message counterfeit grace in my book because there’s a wonderful true message that they’re preaching but it’s been preached with exaggeration; it’s been preached with distortion; it’s been preached with error added in. So a lot of people just get the true part and they’ll say “My life has been changed by this message” I want to preserve that; I’m jealous for that; I don’t want to take away any good thing that anyone received. But when you mix anything with a little poison it can be deadly Sid.
Sid: You know one of the statements that I hear quite often and I believe we have to define this many say “I’m under the New Testament not under the Old; I’m not under the law anymore.” What would you say I walked up to you Mike and I said “I’m not under the law anymore.” What would you say?
Michael: I would say absolutely, number 1 you’re not under the law as a system of justification; you don’t have to keep this commandment, this commandment to be justified. We’ve been justified through faith in Jesus saying “God save me from my sins.” You’re not under the law as a system of justification; you’re not under the condemnation of the law that if you fail to keep the Sabbath one day there’s a death penalty of something like that. And you’re not under the law as a tutor, or a supervisor to bring you to the Messiah. This is all laid out in scripture; as a matter of face I get into this in detail in my book as well. So the law is no longer leading us to the Messiah; we have found the Messiah and we’re in Him. NOW under the New Covenant the law is written on our hearts. NOW under the new covenant we have a higher standard. The law said “Don’t commit adultery.” Jesus now says to us “Don’t lust in your heart.” The law said “Don’t murder, now Jesus grace says to us don’t hate in your heart.” So now we are supernaturally empowered to do what the law commanded us to do; we couldn’t before, it was written on a tablet saying “Do this, do that.” Now through grace it’s written in our hearts and that’s why Hebrew’s warns us “Don’t tamper with it because this is so much higher; so much more precious it cost Jesus His blood.”
Sid: Okay, if that’s true why don’t… since the law is written in our heart why don’t we just cut out our Old Testament and throw it away. Why should we even hang on to it?
Michael: Awe, do you know that one hyper-grace teacher of whom I quote in my book went as far as saying and I wrote to him and said “You still stand by?” He said “100%.” He said “The Bible Society,” I don’t know which Bible Society he meant, “made a terrible mistake when they put the Old Testament together with the New Testament it has terribly confused believers.” Sid I have chapters in my book talking about how the Old Testament is thrown out. And people say “No, no, no we can learn from it; we can learn from examples.” Well Paul writes in 1st Corinthians 10 to believers and said “Look at how Israel sinned.” Look at how adultery, sexual morality, and don’t do the same because these are warnings for us. Sid the Bible of the early church was quote the Old Testament that’s the only Bible they had. Paul preached grace based on the Old Testament; now people want to throw it out. That’s an ancient heresy that goes back to an early church leader who went heretical called Marcion and it goes all the way back to the 2nd century; it’s being revisited today. People are getting so caught up…
Sid: So the same spirit that was on this Marcion is on the hyper-grace teachers today.
Michael: Or at least the tendency to go in that same direction. There is one very well know TV preacher, author that he has a series a teaching series that contrast the God of the New Testament; the God of love and mercy with the God of wrathful God of the Old Testament. That is classic Marcion belief. So we need to recognize a serious root of error. Sid, I’ve read stuff. You know I read the Hebrew like other people read the English.
Sid: Listen, you provoke me to jealousy. Not only does he read the Hebrew but he has memorized a great deal of the Old Covenant in Hebrew. Is that correct?
Michael: Yeah and I’m provoked that there is a whole lot more that I want to memorize that I want to get in my heart and mind. It’s not that big a book when you really think about it. But Sid I read some quotes and here’s what happens, Preacher A says it and then 100 other people repeat it. I see verbatim book after book, teaching after teaching, they all say the same thing because they all think that Brother So and So researched it because he said the Hebrew said this and that. And it’s wrong!
Michael: That’s absolutely false; that’s absolutely false. I think “What Bible are they reading?” And what grieves me is that some of these people are fine people with a fine message that could help so many. But they feel as if to really preach grace they have to go to this hyper-extreme. Some of them say “If it’s not too good to be true it’s not grace.” Well then here’s a logical question, “If there is a hell, if there’s future punishment, then it’s not too good to be true.” Some of them have gone off the deep end and say “That’s right everyone will be ultimately be saved because hey “It’s grace.” This is where it leads.
Sid: Don’t even some of them say the devil is going to end up being saved?
Michael: Yeah, there’s one fellow whose promote it; he used to promote a healthy revival repentance message. Then he began to preach hyper-grace and the moment that you try to interact you are Ishmael, I am Isaac, you are under the law and the flesh and I’m in the Spirit. And now he keeps going further and further and says “Why not, why not Satan being redeemed; why not these wicked spirits being redeemed?” Is there anything outside of God’s grace? Now 99% of the guys would reject that but that’s where it does when it goes untethered from scriptural truth.
Sid: You know Mike I am so excited to release your brand new book we are the first it’s called “Hyper-Grace” subtitled “Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.” It’s 300 plus pages. But this is in my opinion the defining book for one of the greatest heresies that the church has had in modern times….
Sid: I’ll tell you something just reading this new translation of the Bible it’s called “The Power New Testament” it’s actually not that new but it’s fairly new for us. It reveals the Jewish roots and I have to say it the way it is the King James Bible, the modern translations, there was an anti-Jewish bias. And because of the bias there were serious mistakes made in the translation. Now I have the translator on the phone his name is William Morford and William studied under a very prominent PhD Greek scholar. And he made the statement after you showed him “The Power New Testament.” And by the way, where did this PhD and Greek teach Bill? It was Columbia Bible College at that time and now Columbia International University. And what was the statement that he made when he read this translation that you did?
Bill: Well he took me around and introduced me to others in the area that he said “Here is one of my students who has surpassed me.”
Sid: And okay, that’s on the Greek side; on the Hebrew side you studied with Eliezer Ben-Yehuda who’s the grandson of the famous Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, one of the first Zionist. And he’s credited with really the modern day Hebrew coming in as a spoken tongue in Israel. I mean you can’t get any more… any better credentials than that. But why did you call your Bible “The Power New Testament?”
Bill: Alright that has little to do with the Jewish roots and a lot to do with the Greek language. Because both Greek and Hebrew are very expressive languages. And you know enough Israeli’s to know that they are very expressive people.
Sid: You know that’s probably why I love this; it’s such a fresh, crisp translation and I am understanding more about healing, and I’m not sure whether this was your purpose, but I am understanding more about healing by reading this “The Power New Testament” than any translation that I’ve ever read before.
Bill: Yes, and see the way verbs are translated, certain tenses and certain moods require you to say “You must do this now or you must continually do this.” Well other translators just say “Do this.” They don’t bring out the urgency and they don’t bring out the time sense that must be done repeatedly or it must be done immediately.
Sid: By the way one of the things that I just happen to be looking at is the area of repentance. Your Bible brings it out that we’re supposed to do this continuously!
Bill: That’s right.
Sid: I mean it’s not a one time with Billy deal.
Bill: Yeah, basically Jesus said to walk in repentance. And see each of us knows we’ve been saved that’s not the problem but we’re not perfected. What’s right there in the Greek language is that Jesus said “You must continually walk in repentance.” And we have to recognize that we’re not perfect and that we have to strive to be more Christ like. That we have to strive every day to be better than we were the day before, and each year stand up the next year better than we are at the end of the year that’s just ended.
Sid: Bill, we didn’t finish up that story on yesterday’s broadcast that God gave you the revelation that He wants us to walk in divine health literally. And since that time as I understand it you haven’t taken something like an aspirin or an over the counter type of medicine. You totally have this revelation of healing from the word.
Bill: Absolutely, and I’m 73 and it goes back at least 23 years since I took any medication.
Sid: But on yesterday’s broadcast you were talking about you were in Israel and you asked God for a sign if He was going to heal your eyes. Someone accidentally broke your glasses. You took that as a sign and you started walking by faith and then when you realized that you could read street signs but what happens at someone that’s over 70 years of age and goes for a driver’s license not wearing glasses. What kind of results did you get?
Bill: I went 3 days after my 70th birthday and got the driver license that I have now, no glasses. And I read, well you know the Hebrew text. I can read all those points I use a Parallel English Hebrew Old Testament and I have no problem with the small print.
Sid: This isn’t the purpose of our broadcast, but I fancy myself as a mentor to help believers become all that God wants them to be. I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you
“Why are you so convinced… if I were to say everyone needs to be healed in church.” In a good church not a bad church. Everyone needs to be healed in a church raise your hand. I think that better than 95% of the people would raise their hands; how come?
Bill: (Laughing) That could be, that could be but my wife had this revelation too. And several years ago she was diagnosed with cataracts that were ready, in fact the optometrist called them ripe and said that she had to get a surgeon right away and get them off. She just went because she knew that she needed a new prescription. And when she got home and prayed about it the Lord would not let her make any appointment. A year later she went back for that test and the cataracts were totally gone. Her eyes are just as clear today as they can be.
Sid: You know I’m just looking up a particular scripture here in Mark 11:22 and 23. And Jesus said to them “You must have faith in God. Truly I say to you that whoever would say to this mountain ‘You must immediately be removed and you must immediately be cast into the sea,’ and would not doubt in his heart but would believe what he is saying is happening it’s shall be to him. Because I say to you that you must continually pray for everything, then for whatever you are asking, believe that you have taken it, and it will be there for you…” You see how crisp this is Mishpochah, do you see the tenses. I mean literally it becomes more to me than any translation that I’ve ever read before. Is there one particular scripture on healing that you want to bring to our attention?
Bill: Well there is one; it doesn’t deal specifically with healing but it’s Roman’s 4:17 where he says to “Speak things that are not as though they were. Just as it has been written I have appointed you a father before which he believed God. And the one who brings the dead to life and calls things that are not as though they are and they come into being.” That’s actually from Isaiah 48:3.
Sid: And so you tell me that you’re 70 on this earth plus not all being a believer but most of the time being a believer that you’re walking just like this scripture.
Sid: Alright that’s Romans 4 let me read this to you Roman’s 4:17 should I begin I’m reading from the “The Power New Testament.” “Just as it has been written that I have appointed you a father of many nations; before which he believed God. The one who brings the dead to life and calls those things that are not as though they are and they come into being.” Let me read that again “Who brings the dead to life and calls those things that are not as though they are and they come into being.” That is… that’s why you call this I’m sure “The Power New Testament” because that action, that power is put back into the words.
Sid: Now let’s go with one of the major reasons and this may be the major reason Mishpochah. When your wife was healed did she stand on that scripture?
Bill: Yes she did that one and several others she knew that she was healed and she didn’t… really didn’t talk about it and I could see over the course of the year I could see the pupils in her eyes getting smaller and the color returning. So I knew that the Lord was doing what He said He would do.
Sid: Now the thing that is so intriguing, and I believe that one of the reasons that this is such an amazing reading Bible. It’s modern English, it’s not archaic English it’s the Jewish roots. How did you learn these Jewish roots? How did you learn about these idioms if you read it and take it literally take it word for word you’ll miss what Jesus was saying?
Bill: Alright well, you have to believe it in the first place. And then just go on with it and the Hebrew things there are so many that I found that I knew even before I met Eliezer Ben-Yehuda and it would really irritate me to read any other translation. That’s why for a few years before I did the translating I carried the Greek Text with me so I’d read that and I wouldn’t have to get irritated when even preaching reading from another translation.
Sid: For example in Matthew 11:29 Jesus said “You must immediately take My yoke upon you.” Well what does this word yoke mean, you just look at the footnote and it says The rabbis’ say that the Lord’s yoke is total spiritual surrender. And then you have a glossary in the back where you go into detail on the things. As far as I’m concerned if you didn’t have the Jewish roots I would love this translation, but with the Jewish roots it puts it a class all of its own.
Sid: My guest Pastor Charles Cowan Pastor of a 2,000 member strong Faith Is The Victory Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Has just written a book; the titled “How to Deal With the Cares of Life.” And you might say “Well, that’s not bothering me right now.” Well blink your eyes a few times and you will find yourself in a situation in what is going on… Charles with what’s going on the world right now. I mean since 911 I mean you can’t turn your television on without a particular color terror warning. You can’t turn your TV on without suicide bombers; you can’t turn your television on without hurricanes and tornadoes. I mean the Bible does say that men’s hearts will suffer because of fear.
Charles: Yeah it’s what He said “Men’s hearts will fail them for fear of looking to that which will come upon the world.” And this thing it seems like it’s intensifying obviously and the whole design is that this thing Satan in this last day in this last hour he is bringing things to bear upon people and God’s people that are causing them to allow fear into their lives. Which is bringing pressures; bringing them into a place of stress and they’re laden with the cares of life.
Sid: I’m going to get our Mishpochah very upset with me unless I take you back you’re on an airplane all of a sudden it plunges sharply downward. Fear comes up in your throat a tangible force it shouldn’t be you know better but it does. Fear literally, the spirit of fear and that’s the Bible calls it literally filled that in tire plane. The plane then levels and then all of a sudden starts shaking again. And you’ve got a choice as you explained on yesterday’s broadcast, we all have choices. Follow the external stimulus, or the word of God. It sounds so simple but that’s our choice. And as I said that God just told me there are people listening to whose backs and necks are healed in Jesus Name. Charles we got you back in the plane; it’s shaking all over you’ve just plunged down what’s going on inside of you and what are you doing about it?
Charles: Well what I’m doing now, what I’m feeling at the moment is an extreme amount of the emotions within me and thoughts that are racing through my mind as to the outcome of this thing as we described yesterday. But now I found this out that when situations arise they’re going to determine whether I am spiritual or carnal. When I say they will; I will determine whether I am carnal or spiritual when these things come against me.
Sid: Now when I hear the word carnal I usually think in terms of sexual sins and things like that. But when the Bibles using the word carnal it’s relying on what your flesh and mind perceive and what the word of God says.
Charles: When a person of a carnal mind is when they are moved only by what they hear and what they feel.
Sid: And you know what I find a lot of people that state the word but when something suddenly; and these things always seem to be suddenly come at you you go on the carnal side versus the Spirit side.
Charles: Well here’s the problem sometimes I think in my estimation it is that people know what the Bibles says but they have maybe reduced it down to using it only when there is such an occasion like this to use it. But we know this that you know you have a leak in your roof and you’re up there while it’s raining trying to fix it you’re probably not going to get it fixed. And so what people fail to do is to fill themselves with God’s word before crisis comes; before this stress comes; before the Satan begins to tighten this thing down on them. And fill their heart and fill their mind with the reading; the reading of the word and mediation in the word of God, or thinking upon the word of God.
Sid: Explain to me what you mean my meditation.
Charles: Okay, meditation is just simply as I see it it’s just simply where I train my mind to think on the scriptures. That I can do that when I am driving down the road you know I pick out certain scriptures or a number of scriptures from the Bible. And I just think upon them. Now people sometimes say this they say “Well, you know you just can’t think about the scriptures all the time.” But the truth of the matter is that we all are thinking about something all the time. And it’s rare that our mind, our minds, are not in that thinking mode or process or even many times people lay down at night and can’t go to sleep because their minds are racing. And so what I mean by that is I take scriptures that pertain to what God has done for me in Christ Jesus. What did Jesus accomplish for me when he went to the cross; did He do more for me than just make a way for me to go to heaven?
Sid: Charles you and I understand that and we can talk about that all we want right now. What I want to know is what was going on in your mind and what were you saying with your mouth after these things came upon you in that airplane; that’s what I’m interesting in?
Charles: Two things that I forced myself to think on the two scriptures was “That He has given His angels charge over me to keep me in all of my ways and to bear me up in their hands less I dash my foot against a stone.” And then in Isaiah’s writings where he says “No weapon formed against me shall prosper and every tongue that rises against me…” and so forth. Those two scriptures are what I began to speak out of my mouth; I began to focus my thoughts and my thinking on the word of God. I began to think on the word of God that God is faithful and He cannot deny Himself. That “God watches over His word to perform it.” I just flooded my thoughts with those scriptures and just refused; I mean when a thought would come of that fear again and what was going to happen I would just continually say to myself what God said “This is what God says; this is God; God cannot fail; God will not fail and He will not fail me.” And I began to just saying that and saying that and as the pilot brought that plane down and leveled it off you know I felt a little bit of relief from the pressures of the fear that was trying to engulf me. But then we were in that turbulence and here comes that emotion back to me again and the pilot comes on and says “Ladies and gentlemen we’re 80 miles out of Little Rock and we’re going to take it that we’re going to land in Little Rock.” And then just a few short minutes later he comes back and says “That we’ve been informed that there is an ice storm that’s moving eastward and they have just informed us that the airport at Little Rock has just been closed.” Well here comes those same emotions almost overwhelming; my mind is so so in turmoil at this time but I knew what to do. I knew how to confront the situation; I knew that the word of God was my answer. So I began to speak a little louder to myself; “No weapon formed against me shall prosper; every tongue that rises against me in judgment I will condemn; He has given His angels charge over me and they are bearing me up in their hands; I will not dash my foot against a stone and I will be safe because God says that I will.” So he comes then; the pilot does the captain comes I’m sure he didn’t mean it quite like it came to me but he said “And we are going to make an attempt to make it to Dallas Fort Worth. Well, I know this you don’t try up there; you do or you don’t. And so…
Charles: And here comes that Satan flooding my mind with that “You’re going to try; he’s going to try; he’s either going to do it or he’s not going to do it.” In this case he’s not going to do it and I just spoke a little louder what God said about my situation. What God had done for me in my protection; in my safety and I said that until my mind quieted; till the emotions left my body and I could sit there in that plane in that turbulence. And I had a perfect peace about me because God’s word had brought me into a place of peace though I was in the midst of the storm. God’s word by His spirit had brought a peace to me that I could sit in the middle of a storm knowing that the end of the storm while I am yet still in the storm. I said “I will be safe; this plane will land; I will go to the convention that I’m going to; I will return home to my family because I knew that God… if God said it that’s the way it’s going to be because God cannot lie and God does not fail.”
Sid: You know what I’m wondering? I’m wondering you know when that tape recorder as you put it in your book starts going off in your mind if you spend a great deal of time watching violent sports on television; watching violence on TV. Maybe more time than you’ve spent reading the Bible, I can see how Satan can pull that tape out rather than the scripture.
Charles: Well he’ll sure do that. You know what you fill your mind with; what the individual fills their mind with that’s what Satan, you know over on his side of the ledger, that’s what he does. He’ll push that play button and he’ll run all of these things that we see like on TV and all that we hear on the news and all of the bad that is happening in the world and he’ll play that tape over and over and over again. And Satan will use those things to try to erase from our mind the word of God that we have placed in our mind. And so that’s why when Paul said “We’re to bring every thought into captivity…”
Sid: Awe we’re out of time right now. Mishpochah this is so important and the times we’re living in….
Sid: I’m interviewing Ron Cantor and I’m speaking to him at his home at a city right outside of Tel Aviv, Israel. Ron is Executive Pastor of Tiferet Yeshua it’s a Messianic Congregation in Tel Aviv and Tiferet Yeshua means the glory of Jesus. And speaking of the glory of Jesus Ron I am told that things are going on in Israel as far as Jewish evangelism like have not been in centuries. What are you seeing going on?
Ron: Well, we in our congregation we’ve been enjoying a wonderful season really from February of this year we’ve seen many Israelis’ come to faith. We immerse 10 Israelis’ over the summer in the Mediterranean Sea. And every service the presence of God is there. And so we’re very optimistic we’re expecting more. And I would invite all of your listeners around the world to agree with us in prayer because we need the prayers of the believers all around the world in order to be strong.
Sid: Now we’re interviewing you on your brand new book “Identity Theft” because the churches identity has been stolen. And we’re still trying to now… now the way that you’ve written it it’s masterful. Now you could have written a book on facts, but instead the Holy Spirit directed you to write a novel about a Jewish reporter that an angel apprehends and takes him back in time. It’s a fabulous premise on the book, but you work in all the facts in the story line; people will not want to put the book down. You have humor in the book, but you also have some moments from history that are very sad. For instance, let me take you back to a Roman emperor by the name of Constantine. What affect did he have in this identity theft?
Ron: Well he was the first Roman emperor to embrace Christianity in 312 and he… up until that the other ten Roman Emperors before him were very hostile to the faith. Hundreds of thousands of believers were martyred in the Roman Empire primarily because they would not proclaim that Caesar was god. During those times Caesar was considered a deity and once these people began believing in Yeshua they could no longer confess publicly that Caesar was god. So they would be killed, but Constantine he became a believer. The problem is that he felt that a part of his mission; I say he became a believer, I don’t know based on the fruit after that it’s hard for me to believe he was genuinely born again.
Sid: No I doubt seriously that he was because as I read history he literally started merging paganism and Christianity which was one of the worse things that ever happened to Christianity.
Ron: Right, and in 325 he instructed the Bishops of Nicaea to get rid of Passover. Up until that point when the church would celebrate the resurrection of Jesus they would use the Jewish feast of Passover. It made perfect sense because it happened at the same time. But he was anti-Semitic and he did not want to honor the Jewish people. Somehow he must have forgotten that Jesus was a Jew and all of the Apostles were Jewish. But he wrote to the Bishops of Nicaea and they got rid of Passover. And they took the pagan feast of Ishtar which then became Easter and that’s what we celebrate today. And in addition to that he created the idea of celebrating the birth of the Messiah in addition to his death and he created Christmas and Easter.
Sid: Okay, what affect did it have on a Jewish person that embraced Jesus; was part of the church but wanted to still observe the Sabbath, observe Passover? What would happen to them?
Ron: That became illegal that became against the law. You were not allowed; Jew or Gentile to embrace the Jewish feasts, to embrace the Sabbaths. In fact in the year 364 the Council of Laodicea they actually, they formally declared Sunday as the Lord’s day. And they said no longer shall you rest on the Sabbath, the Jewish Sabbath, you must rest on Sunday. Here’s exactly what the wrote “Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday; they shall work on that day. The Lord’s day, meaning Sunday, they shall especially honor and being Christians shall if possible do no work on that day. If however, they are found Judaizing, which means resting on the Jewish Sabbath, they will be cut off from Christ. So when the church should have been concerned about things like adultery or in the modern era pedophilia or things like their worried passing laws that which day somebody rests. It’s absolutely crazy to the point that if you celebrate the Jewish Sabbath you will be excommunicated; you won’t go to heaven; you cannot partake of the Messiah.
Sid: Well what about something like baptism; how did that get so changed?
Ron: Well, that’s really interesting because if you take away 2000 years of history you’d understand that baptism is Jewish.
Sid: Yet I’m going to take you back Ron to a Jewish college student that doesn’t believe in Jesus and if someone says “You must be born again and baptized,” what would have went through your mind?
Ron: I would have said “There can be nothing more un-Jewish than being getting baptized.” It’s one thing to secretly believe in Jesus but being publicly baptized in an essence is to say I am no longer a Jew I’m cutting myself off from my people. That’s how I felt. But as I begin to study I began to realize that emerging of water started with the Jewish people. We see John the Baptist who sounds like a Christian figure. I often ask people when I’m speaking if I mention Jeremiah, Ezekiel, or Isaiah do you think Christian or Jewish? And they all say Jewish. And I say what about John the Baptist? And they say; “Oh Christian” but he wasn’t a Christian. John the Baptist was a Jewish prophet just like Jeremiah; Isaiah, Ezekiel. And what he did was he prophesied the coming of the Lord and he called people to repent and he would immerse them in water to express that. But not only John in Jerusalem; did you ever wonder Sid how Peter and the other apostles immersed in water 3000 Jewish men plus woman and children on the day of Shavuot? There could have been as many…
Sid: Listen I’ve been out to the Jordan and I’ve had baptism services and it’s a lot of work; how did they do it Ron?
Ron: And there’s no water in Jerusalem; in Jerusalem you’re on top of a mountain there’s no river; there’s very little water. The answer to the question is this, archeologists have found over 50 immersion tanks surrounding the temple. Now why were they there? Well, whenever a Jewish person would come to Jerusalem to make a sacrifice before they could to into the temple courts with their sacrifice they would have to go in for one of these immersion tanks and get ritually clean. This was very very familiar to Jewish people, so when Peter commanded that these 3000 Jewish men be immersed in water they didn’t say “What is water immersion, what is this is this a new religion?” No they were familiar with it in fact they had already probably been immersed that week because they had come up from the nations to celebrate the feast of Shavuot, Pentecost, and probably made a sacrifice at the temple they were completely familiar with whole idea of baptism. But what happened in the Middle Ages, particularly in Spain, is that when the Jews of Spain were told; my wife’s family were run out of Spain 500 years ago. They were told either be baptized as a Christian or get out of our country. So this left a horrible taste in the hearts of Jewish people for centuries. So when we think of baptism sadly as Jewish people we often think of something completely and totally not Jewish.
Sid: You know Ron I’ve studied the Jewish mikvah, where baptism really came from, and I like some of the principles. For instance, it’s a self-immersion because they don’t want anyone but God to touch them. And so many times when I have a service in Israel I make it a mikvah service; because many have already been baptized in a traditional sense and it’s one of the highlights of our tour.
Ron: Amen (Laughing) it absolutely is and it’s completely Jewish. It started with the Jewish people and continues today.
Sid: In a couple of sentences why did you call it “Identity Theft?”
Ron: Because Jesus was robbed of His Jewish Identity. I told myself when I got born again in 1983 “I’m no longer a Jew.” Well anybody that read and studied the New Testament would know that that’s ridiculous. But Jesus was made over the centuries his hair was colored blond and his eyes suddenly became blue many people might think He was Norwegian or Danish but certainly not an Israeli. I’m not really talking about the tone of his skin or his eyes. I’m talking about the promised Jewish Messiah.
Sid: But wait a second now I see why that’s important for a Jewish person but why is it important for a Gentile Christian?
Ron: It’s important for the Gentile Christian because it’s their roots it’s what they believe. Would you like to be married to somebody for 20, 30, 40 years and then find out that their background was completely in utterly something other than what you believed, that would be shocking. We try to introduce people to the real Yeshua and why He came. He came in response to the prophesies of the Jewish prophesy.
Sid: Ron, we’re out of time.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand what replacement theology is and to be able to know what God’s position is. You see replacement theology is the basic belief; One way of looking at it is, that the Jews have inherited today all the curses and the church as inherited today all of the blessings. But you cannot read the bible from Genesis to Revelation and come up with that lie. For instance Romans 9, 10 and 11 just briefly… Sandy Teplinski and I’m interviewing her on this wonderful complete fresh approach to the question and the title of the book “Why Still Care About Israel?” Sandy tell me a little bit of what can be gleaned from Romans 9, 10 and 11.
Susan: Romans 9, 10 and 11 is chalked full of God’s heart for Israel that He wants His people, the Christian church to know about and to carry. Roman’ 9 – 11 teaches us that God is… God Himself cares a sorrow in His heart for Israel’s salvation that He calls us to pray for Israel’s salvation that in fact that there is coming a time when Israel will be saved. And that He has not rejected His people that He has called the Gentle Christian Church to pray for His people. To not be ignorant nor arrogant depending on your translation toward the Jewish people But to understand that they have been grafted in like olive tree branches into a an olive tree that is rooted in a Jewish soil that rooted in the Jewish patriarchs and the Jewish scriptures and the God of Israel.
Sid: I love it in Romans 9 it says that the Jewish people are loved on account of the fathers. What does God mean by that?
Susan: Well what He says is that He loves them because of the covenant that He made with our fathers. In Deuteronomy 7 God says that He chose and loved Israel because Israel. That’s as much as He’s going to tell us. It’s because He chose to make covenant and that that covenant still stands as Romans 9 – 11 expounds on. And it expounds on that specifically for new covenant Gentle Christians believers.
Sid: As an attorney what does it mean to you when God says in the New Testament that in reference to Israel “The gifts and calling of God are without repentance?” As an attorney what does that mean?
Susan: That means that He cannot take away the gifts that He’s put on Israel, nor the calling on Israel. And specifically how I get to that as attorney is context. Context is everything. You know we all love to quote this verse when it concerns our own gifts and callings. And yes we can expanded way apply that on a certain level to individual believers but we cannot neglect the fundamental context in which that promise appears which is concerning God’s promises and covenant to Israel.
Sid: You know and I know you feel this way but my heart goes out to how the Palestinians are being used by their own Arab nations that have so much money. They’re being used by their own leaders who take the billions of dollars the US and other countries are handing them and just put it in their own bank accounts. How the Palestinians have been left, on purpose, by the Arab nations to live in squalor when the Sheiks are running around with the wealth of the world, I mean they are being used. So what should I as a believer in the Messiah; as a believer that God wants the Jewish people and the land of Israel. What should my position be with the Palestinians?
Susan: Well, first of all your position is one of realizing the reality of what you just described. And it’s a reality that I document extensively in the book and on the book’s website. But also just convey in simple language in the book itself this is the reality; we can’t live in denial any more. We have to realize that our tax dollars are supporting the Palestinian peoples being used as pawns by the larger Arab Muslim world. Now as Christians first thing we need to do is pray. Pray for Israeli, and especially Israeli Messianic social justice organizations that are actually advocated on behalf of the Palestinians and trying to clarify to the nations of the world what is really happening behind the scenes. Now I’m not talking about liberal left wing Israeli movements that sadly might even deny the scriptures and the word of God and therefore don’t even think about God’s covenant with Israel. I’m talking about Messianic Israeli Jewish social justice advocates. There aren’t many aren’t too many but pray for them. And secondly there are a number of us that are involved in reconciliation efforts with Palestinian Christians. And in a word it’s beginning stages because our theologies are so different much of the time. Pray for that because we do love each other as brother and sisters but that love needs to mature in the Lord. Pray for the minority of Palestinian Christians who do genuinely love God and love Israel.
Sid: You know one of the hopes that I see; one of the wonderful things that I see and I know that you put it in your book. That Jews and Palestinians are having dreams and visions of Jesus. And many of these Palestinians become such strong lovers of Jesus and lovers of what Jesus loves, the Jewish people and the land of Israel. But tell me just briefly about the lies in the media.
Susan: Oh my, well there is a whole… there have been some whole expose that have been done in the past several years to expose how the Palestinian media which is highly censored anything that is officially realized has to be cleared by the government. There is no freedom of press; highly distorted in order to present the Arab Palestinian Israeli conflict in a cause that is favorable to the Palestinians and highly unfavorable to the Israel. And frankly what they’re doing many times is outright lying there is no way to whitewash it. They are…
Sid: Give me one example I know you have many in your book.
Susan: Okay, well just one example this is kind of a comical example. During the last war with Gaza at the end of 2012, Palestinians were posted on social media different photos and videos that they were representing to the live real shots of Israeli so called abuse of against so called Gazan innocence civilians and what we’ve found; what was found out within a matter of days that some of the footage and some of the photos actually depicted Jewish Israeli terror victims from the previous intifada; the Arab uprising of terror in the 2000′s. Those were Jews that were being depicted as Arab victims; that’s just one. Another one I just have to mention because this is the one that’s comical is that there was a video of a Muslim in Gaza that was being held by apparently an abusive Israeli soldier. So we watch him clutching his chest and falling to the ground and his comrades are surrounding him and in the background there’s gunshots. And toward the end of the video we see him pick himself up brush himself off put his arms around his friends and then they walk off. Well, that video came down about 24 hours after it went up but that’s the sort of thing that we see. My question is if the Israeli abuse that alleged is in fact so great why do we have to go to such lengths to artificially portray it?
Sid: Well, that’s pretty logical but this whole thing isn’t logical; it’s not logical that the world is turning against the Jew in Israel. Except God says it’s a final conflict of darkness and light that’s going on right before our very eyes. That’s why I’m so excited about your fresh approach.
Sid: Well, after listening to David Jones this week I am sure you’re red hot for the Messiah. But something happened to me and I had nothing with the open vision that David had, but almost simultaneous to him having the open vision of The Day of the Lord. Where he was literally in that place, he saw it, he felt it, he smelled it. Everyone of his senses was activated there. I had a dream, and in the dream I was told 3 times, Jesus is coming back soon, He said “I’m coming back soon, I’m coming back soon, I’m coming back soon,” 3 times. “I’m coming back soon,” and I have to tell you I wasn’t even thinking about that. I mean I’m kind of like in the Bible which talks about we’re going about our regular business and then all of a sudden He’s there. I mean I thought maybe a couple of hundred years, maybe 50 years. But that’s not what He said to me. He said “I’m coming back soon.” And you know you would have to be dead not to realize that everything on planet earth is speeding up. I mean take a few things and look at the prophecies of what to look for “It’ll be like the days of Noah” the Bible says.” The acceptability in my lifetime of homosexuality as being acceptable and taught in schools beyond my imagination. Now I have to tell you God sent His Son to die for those that are homosexual but the definition of marriage is beyond the pale of what’s going on as normal. The proliferation of pornography, so many people are being addicted right now, where there are demonic spirits behind them, end time demonic spirits. The proliferation of nuclear weapons, look what’s going on in Iran, in North Korea, I mean these are lunatics and we’re letting them develop their atomic weapons and we know what they’re going to use it for. The Bible says lawlessness shall increase, and look what we’re seeing with the drug traffic, with the sex trade, even using young children. Unbelievable how… but it’s happening so quickly it’s not like the boiling frog on a slow boil it’s a rapid boil that ‘s going on right now. But the Bible says “There is one sign that has not occurred that is going to release the judgment of God on planet earth.” And that sign is found in Joel Chapter 3 verse 1 to 3. “For behold in those days and at that time when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem.” Well that means Israel must be a nation, that means the Jewish people must be in the land of Israel. Have you looked? You can’t read a newspaper today without seeing something about Israel, something about Jerusalem. We’re back look at what Joel says that is a sign. He says “When that occurs I’ll gather all nations and I will enter into judgment with them there on account of (and get this) and God calls the Jewish people in the land of Israel My people, My heritage Israel.” And I’m reminded of Zechariah in the Living Bible it says “He that touches Israel is the same as someone that pokes their finger in God’s eye.” And it says “Whom they have scattered the people the nations that have been scattered to the nations of the earth.” It says “Whom they have scattered among the nations.” And here’s the sign, “They have also divided up the My land.” So what is the sign that will bring the release of God’s judgment “Dividing up the land of Israel.” Now Jesus said to watch the fig tree, the fig tree is a type of Israel. Listen to this Luke 21 verse 29 to 32. “Then, He (That’s Jesus) spoke to them a parable (Israel and all of the trees the other nations). “When they are already budding,” when Israel is modern day Jewish nation you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also when you see these things happening know that the kingdom of God is near. Assuredly this is Jesus speaking to you right now “I say to you this generation, the generation that saw the fig tree blossom; what’s the fig tree (Israel) what is blossom? That means the Jews are returning to the nation it’s Jewish nation. We are told that assuredly I say to you this generation will by no means pass till all things take place. And then in Luke 21 verse 34 and 35 but “Take heed to yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the cares of this life. And that day comes on you unexpectedly for it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.” And Jesus said “Just before He comes there is going to be a removal of spiritual scales on the eyes of Jewish people.” In fact these are His words in Matthew 23:39 “You shall see Me no more till you say “Baruch haBah Shem Adonai” Blessed is He who Comes in the Name of the Lord.” I found this unbelievable, I got a copy of the Times of Israel as the electronic secular publication newspaper dated November 20, 2013 this the headline of a secular newspaper coming from Israel. “Has the time come to accept Messianic Jews?” And then it sights the pew survey “Pew says 34% of Americans think that you can be Jewish and believe in Jesus. So why doesn’t the established Jewish Community embrace them?” I mean I’d never thought I’d see this from a traditional Jewish newspaper. You see this is ground work that is about ready to happen for the greatest revival the world has ever seen. And what is the greatest revival? It’s found in Amos the 9th chapter 11 – 13. “On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David” the word tabernacle in Hebrew means house or family. So God is saying on that day I’m going to raise up the tabernacle of David, the family of David which has fallen. “And they may possess the remnant of Edom and all of the Gentiles that are called by My name says the Lord who does this thing.” So somehow the Jewish people are going to reach multitudes of gentles when they become believers in Jesus and then it describes a revival like the world has never seen. The harvest is so great Amos says, you won’t be able to get all the fruit until it’s next year’s time to have a harvest. There will be more people saved than churches will be able to hold them. And this explaining to you the great mystery that Paul explains to us in Ephesians the 2nd chapter verse 14 and 15 and 22. It’s talking about Jesus. “He has broken down the middle wall of separation so as to create in Himself one new man from the two” thus making peace, you know the Hebrew word for peace, Shalom. It means completeness as if to say if the two do not become one He’s talking about Jew and Gentile. The presence of God won’t have a complete resting place, but if the two become one. Verse 22 says “In whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” When? When the middle wall of separation comes down and the two Jew and Gentile become one. Now you can understand the prodigal son parable. The older son, he represents the Gentile Christian working hard in the vineyard for his father. Who is well pleased with him, the younger son rejected his inheritance, wasteful living, wasteful spending; wine, woman and song, bankrupt. And then he comes to his senses and in Luke chapter 15 it says you know he’s feeding the pigs and he says “The pigs are eating better than I am but I know what I am going to do. It says “He arose and came to his father, but when he was still a great way off his father saw him and had compassion and ran and fell on his neck. This is the Jewish person coming home to Jesus, the younger son and he kissed him. And the son said to him ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight and I’m no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put a ring on his hand and scandals on his feet.’” I wish I had more time to explain this.
Sid: You know I’ve got to interrupt this right now because God is telling me right now that people’s spines are being healed right now. And backs and pain and necks and any pain it’s gone in Yeshua’s Name. Holy Spirit You interrupt me anytime You want to; I’ve got on the telephone from their home in Casa Grande, Arizona, Pat and Patty McEnnerney. And Pat you and your wife move in such extraordinary power. And one of the keys that opened this up was dying to self. Well, listen there are many believers that say “I’d like to but I can’t; what do I do, what does this die to self mean? I mean it’s all God He’s got to do it; do I have a part?”
Pat: Hallelujah, everybody has a part. Let me just share quickly consecration is the key. And if you take 2nd Corinthians 3:16, 17, 18 is a concentration prayer and it talks about the glory in you as looking in the mirror. And the last of that says “And by the Holy Ghost.” When Adam and Eve when they sinned man fell back in himself and split, separated, the raiment the glory of God. And they lost their heavenly state and Jesus restored us as before sin. Hallelujah and so we have a heavenly state and earthly state and the soul has to be restored. Your spirit when you receive Jesus is instantly recreated and the demonic nature is removed from it. And then you have to put on the mind of Christ; then you have to with trembling and fear walk out your salvation. Many don’t understand that.
Sid: This trembling and fear doesn’t even compute in 21st century American Christianity.
Pat: We’ve lost it. The fear of God must be embraced and cried out for. You must beckon the Lord to draw you into Him. You know it’s His desire.
Sid: You know get practical; what should someone do? A-B-C.
Pat: ABC repent, Lord forgive me I’m blind in areas, I see that I want to be holy and pure and I see that I’m not. Holy Spirit I give you permission to destroy and remove every vice; to remove all hardness of my eyes enlighten my understanding to the Rhema living Word Jesus.
Sid: Why do we have to give God permission; why doesn’t He just take it?
Pat: Awe, that’s the beautiful thing of the gospel; the love that God offers must be received. He’s knocking at the door; you must open it. You know that is a choice; God made a choice that those that rejected Him. And that’s the power of this wonderful love you must receive it. God doesn’t come upon you and take your will away; because that isn’t how God works. It’s a love that will not offend you and making you believe and step into. It’s a love that will bring judgment to all men; no doubt about it. But it must be entered into by saying “Here I am take me.”
Sid: You know I’m convinced that when we get to heaven the big thing that Jesus will say to us is “Did you walk in love?”
Pat: That’s it, you know in the parable Jesus says “Friend,” The parable of the wedding feast. “Friend, where’s your wedding garment?” Well God, Jesus the Father, is talking to a believer that’s cast out. I don’t believe that he’s cast out to hell, but I think that God is calling each and every person that we’re all called. You know our ministry is called in demonstration of phenomenal things they’re just phenomenal the Name of Jesus is.
Sid: Alright I want people to understand the power that you and your wife operate in. Tell me you know that God has really used you with people with AIDS tell me one person, perhaps someone dying of AIDS.
Pat: How about 3 people.
Pat: In the hospital our pastor was giving us a ride…
Sid: Look give me 100 people; just be healed. (Laughing)
Pat: He’d received a call, Pastor Tom had received a call and he said “Pat would you mind stopping at Fairfax Hospital this is in Washington D.C. There’s a young man there with a family that the doctor gives about 12 hours to live and he has AIDS. And I said “Yeah, you know let’s stop we’ve got time.” And as we were walking into the hospital I was crying out to the Lord “Dear God.” And the Lord said to me “I have sent you to set the captives free.” And so they would only allow but one person in the room and I walked in and he was a precious Hispanic man. And I said “Ormando, I am a bond servant, a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, He sent me in here and to lay my hand upon you and God will raise you up out of this bed and He’s going to heal you in 3 minutes.” And he had these huge tuberculosis tumors, and folks I don’t know of many people that have not seen or smelled death this man was gray and he could barely open up his eyes he was in excruciating pain but he had no breath. These tumors were pressing on his throat and his lungs. As I laid my hand on the tumor it vaporized and there was 4 of them. And pretty soon he started screaming because his breath was coming back. And then I rebuked the spirit of death of AIDS and the spirit of pain. Laid my hands on his forehead and anointed him and he leaped out of his gurney, literally it was awesome. And he threw his hands up in the air and started jumping and repenting and shouting the Lordship of Jesus. Now this young man was radically raised from the dead, I mean he was still breathing but he was as good as dead. Another man…
Sid: But did you see the tumors vaporize before your eyes?
Pat: Absolutely it was like my hand touched it and then fell all the way to the normal chest. They were as big as two fists together.
Sid: How long did all of this take?
Pat: Under 3 minutes.
Pat: The next man was a young man who came to a healing conference that I had in Baltimore; he sat in the backroom he was just like a walking skeleton. Many times God’s speaking to me as I preach and so I’m waiting for the Holy Ghost to move people, I’m always waiting for the Holy Spirit to do it.
Sid: Me too, and I get confused when I’m trying to talk my thoughts and listen to God at the same time. I have to stop; God you’re in charge.
Pat: So, finally this young man came up and started to cry and I said “Don’t be ashamed come here.” I said “Are you ready to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior?” He had no faith; I mean he had faith but he had no expectations of God healing him period. But he received Jesus and when I lead somebody in the prayer to receive the Messiah they receive all the gifts and they get baptized with His fire and the power of God came and he fell back on the floor over the tremendous power of God and just laid there. And I leaned over and loosed the spirit of AIDS or death off of him, cast it off. And I said “Young man, by the strips of Jesus Christ this very day you’ve been healed, and 45 minutes later or so he was able to get off the floor. And I said “Now, go get your blood tested and the Lord’s healed you.” He had an appointment on Monday or Tuesday I forget, this was a Sunday, and they got the results back a week after that and he said “The doctor kept running in and out of the room.” (Laughing) There was no trace, and he had a double testing, not only did he have late stage HIV but he also had contracted brain AIDS induced meningitis and there was nothing, pure. The blood was absolutely totally pure, the young man’s put 65 pounds on. And then a few weeks ago we were in South Carolina in our tent and Henry was a street person; a precious black man and I’ll never forget Henry’s smile because all he had was teeth on the side. He was just precious. And he came up, and he sat in the back and finally after preaching we were ministering and he came up. And there was just tears and sobbing and he said “Could God forgive me again, could I come back?” And I said “Oh Henry, how the Lord loves you.” So I led him in a prayer to recommit his life and I laid my hands on him and I rebuked that demon of AIDS. Henry had sores all over his body, all over puss, it was awful. And he had come to the meeting evidently to see if he could get $15 for a bus ticket if you could image this to go to his mother’s funeral. Pastor Glen the next day gave him a ride to the bus depot and Henry sat there smiling. And said Pastor Glen, “Have you notice anything?” And Pastor Glen said “No Henry what are you talking about?” And he said “Look, I have no more sores on my body, that’s the Jesus I know.”
Sid: Hm. Let me ask you something, have you ever seen a Messianic Miracle? A Messianic Miracle is someone born blind that gets their sight.
Sid: Tell me one.
Pat: This year in Diwali, Africa there was a sister that came up in a public meeting to receive prayer and she was partly paralyzed and she couldn’t walk. And the Lord immediately healed her; I mean immediately healed her. And this was a French speaking country, and so I don’t speak French so as I’m observing her not using my prophetic gifts I realized that there’s no pupil there’s nothing. And so through the interpreter I said “Ask this dear sister if she would like Jesus to heal her blindness?” And she had to think about it a minute and finally she said “Oui.” So I could just feel the increase of the presence of God so I laid my hand on her left eye. And I said “Father, in Jesus Name I ask for a creation miracle and I pulled my hand away.” And I said to the interpreter “Tell her to open her eyes.” And so she opened her eyes and covered the right eye and I said “What is it that she sees?” And through the interpreter she says “You look like a tree.” And so I got pretty excited about that so I prayed again and this time I said “Father I thank you for the completed created miracle in Jesus Name.” Holy Spirit I charge You and force the Covenant to come to life.” And I pulled my hand away quickly because I’d been waiting to see myself; God I’ve seen tremendous miracles but I’ve never seen an eye recreated.” And as quick as quick as I pulled my hand away I saw a cloud a vapor cloud form around, swirl around her left eye. And I saw the pupil being created (Laughing).
Sid: My goodness we’re out of time today but tomorrow’s broadcast I’m going to have Patrick and his wife Patty pray for you. Get ready for a miracle Roman’s 11 says “Salvation has come to the Gentile to provoke the Jew to jealousy.” What are you doing; this is the time that the spiritual blindness has coming off the eyes of the Jewish people. This is the time for the emergence of one new man. This is the time for the race to save the world.
Sid: My guest Doug Jones is a teachers teacher; he’s a Professor out at Rhema Bible College in Tulsa, Oklahoma. For 9 years he taught in their healing school; where people came from all over the world with terminal diseases. He actually lived for a season with Kenneth Hagin in his home. And Kenneth Hagin of course has gone home to be with the Lord. But Doug of everything you’ve learned from Dr. Hagin what was the most important thing in reference to healing?
Doug: There was a principal that Brother Hagin would always say after he ministered to the sick. And sometimes even before. Well, in most cases before but sometimes he’d talk about it after-wards. He’d say these words “The moment I lay my hands upon the healing power of God will be administered to your body but what you do with it after that is up to you.” I want to say that again Sid; I can’t tell you how many times I heard him say these words. “The moment I lay my hands upon you the healing power of God will be administered to your body; but what you do with it after that is up to you.” For years I heard him say that and I would travel with him from 1975 until 1979 I pretty well traveled with him everywhere he went here in the states. Now he did take a trip to South Africa that I did not go with him on. But he would minister to the sick, hundreds of people and he would say that over and over. “What you do with it after that it’s up to you.” Finally that statement got to me and I thought to myself “Well, what are you supposed to do with it after that; I mean what’s all this.” And I went back through some of brother Hagin’s teaching in his transcripts and I found a transcript dated January 8, 1982 brother Hagin was teaching in Healing School. Now I’m going to read this word for word it’s a transcript; it’s not an edited thing so it’s going to sound a little different because it is a word for word. But I want to read this to you can see. “I’m talking about once that healing power has been administered through the laying on of hands or through the handkerchief or apron placed upon your body; that healing power goes into your body and it begins to work but what you do with it after that is up to you.” I’m quoting Brother Hagin I was preaching in Beaumont, Texas in January of 1953 and a lady brought her daughter; oh between 8 or 9 years old. She had polio when she was about 3 years old, never had walked another step encased in braces. She carried that little 8 year old girl with those braces into the healing line. I’m sitting in a chair on the platform laying hands on folks. I took the child in my hands and held her; I laid my hands on those little limbs. They were no bigger than just bone and skin. I felt that healing power go into her; oh my heart went out to that little girl then. My daughter that you know was much older than that and a mother herself. (And she was at the same age at that time; identically at the same age about 8 or 9 and he’s talking about Pat his daughter.) And I thought what if that was my daughter; I learned by speaking to the woman that it was her only child; her only child. Now I just had one daughter and one boy and I thought (Oh, my God.) And I said to the congregation what about if this was your child reach your hands out with compassion; reach your hands out with faith towards this child. See and we ought to always get involved in this; it ought not to just be Brother Hagin, oh no, no, no. Read again in James chapter 5 “He says pray one for another that you may be healed” we ought to get involved. And so I said to the congregation reach your hand out in faith, reach out in compassion towards this little child; this little girl; this little child; what if this was your child polio stricken?” There seemed to be no immediate change; oh I had such a strong anointing. I said to the mother “I don’t know everything but I know this “The Lord told me in the vision that when that power leaves your hand and goes into them you know that they are healed, that’s as far as God is concerned it’s done.” I said “If it will help you any at all, I have had a stronger anointing ministering to this child than I had with anybody in this whole meeting; that anointing went into your child’s limbs and into her body.” Well, and this is important Sid, I never tell people to take off their braces or to get up out of the chair or anything unless the Lord particularly leads me or sometimes He tells me too. Sometimes you’ll just have an inward intuition but if you don’t I just leave them in their own chair. It’s not according to my faith Jesus didn’t say to the woman with the issue of blood “Daughter it’s my faith that made you whole.” He said “Daughter your faith made you whole.” And so I had no further leading and I just handed the child back to her mother and she took her into her arms and went back to her pew. And then we finished the healing line and they went home. At the 10:00 service the next morning the pastor came running up to me because I stayed there in his home. I was in the bathroom shaving; I could hear his voice you know and I knew that he was quite excited about something. Brother Hagin, Brother Hagin! “You know that lady that was there last night with that little child girl with polio and all the braces.” And I said “Yeah, ‘Well, she’s out there, the braces are off and the child is healed.’” He had the woman to testify and then that night the same night the same thing, the girl walked up and down the aisle all around where everybody could see her. The little limbs you see had completely gown to the same size as the one as the other and it was several inches shorter; it was just as long and just as big around as the other limb. Well, the mother said “How many of you were here last night?” I guess around 90% of the crowd lifted their hands, she said “You saw what Brother Hagin did and said and so on.” My husband and I went home by that time we had gotten home the child was asleep because it was late. So I just put her in bed she was asleep. I got up the next morning and got her husband off to work, then about 8:00 in the morning she was still asleep and usually let her sleep because she is the between 8 or 9 years old. Because she’s never gone to school she can’t walk so I just let her sleep and so I went in as usual as my custom was to give her a bath. And that’s the only time I remove her braces is when I put her in the bath tub. So I drew the bath water then I went into the bedroom awakened her, picked her up carried her into the bathroom; removed her night clothes, took off the braces. She’s not any better, not any better, I put her in the bath tub and she’s 8 years of age but because of her crippled condition I have to bath her. I got down on my knees and I begin to bathe her and I begin to cry. The tears fell off of my face into the water; I said “Oh God, why, why, why, I wanted my baby, I wanted her to be healed; she’s my only child and I wanted her to be healed so badly. And she said “Something on the inside of me.” See, she’s born again and the Spirit-Filled Christian really, it was her spirit, the Holy Ghost in her spirit. Something in the inside of me just spoke up and said “Do you believe that Brother Hagin just stood there and in other words just sat there because I was sitting in a chair when I laid my hands upon her; ‘ Do you believe that he sat there on the platform and told a bare-face lie; he said the power of God went into that child; do you think he did; do you believe that?’ No she said “I don’t believe that he lied; I believe that he told the truth.” She said “Something on the inside of me said, ‘Do you believe that Brother Hagin is a prophet of God a man of God?” And I said tried up my tears and I said “Oh God, forgive me of my doubts.” She she’s born again, Spirit-Filled member of the full gospel church but forgive me of my doubts, forgive me, I repent. She said out loud “I believe that Brother Hagin is a man of God (see she’s saying it with her mouth Sid) I believe that he’s called of God, I believe that he’s anointed of God; I believe that he’s a prophet of God. I believe that he told the truth; I don’t believe that he lied.” I believe. Here it is “What you do with it after that is up to you.” That’s what we’re talking about, “I believe that the power flowed into my child; I believe that power is working in my child’s limb now.” See Sid that’s what Brother Hagin is talking about “What you do with it after that.” You have to believe that’s it’s present and that it’s working mightily in your body. Listen to what she said “I believe that that power flowed into my child, I believe that that power is working in my child’s limbs now. See when she said that something like dry sticks popping. I looked down at the bathtub and that limb straightened right out; right there in front of my eyes the child was perfectly healed. Now what am I saying to you? Is the healing power (this is Brother Hagin now.) Is the healing power of God often times is ministered to a person’s body, that’s the reason sometimes it’s 10 days, that’s the reason sometimes it’s 3 days, that’s the reason sometimes it’s not always instant. The healing power of God is administered to a person’s body but the healing process will not be consummated until faith is exercised. “Are you listening to me; are you listening to me?” What he was talking about was simply this Sid, is that that woman in order to keep that power working in her child’s body she had to believe that it was administered; and she had to believe that it was working mightily. Brother Hagin would say these words “The moment I lay my hands on you the healing power of God will be administered to your body but what you do with it after that is up to you.” What happens is this Sid is that people are exiting prayer lines and because they don’t see an instantaneous manifestation then they never consider that the healing power of God was administered.
Sid: Many times I prayed for people; I have felt even though as you have explained in your books, “It doesn’t matter what you feel.” But I have felt the anointing go into the person; the person feels the anointing and guess what they’re not healed. What you’re saying is “That’s how we are missing it.”
Doug: Because they didn’t do anything with it, they didn’t believe that the anointing was administered and they didn’t believe that it was working mightily.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to hear God’s voice for themselves. I can’t think of anything for important for you than for you to hear God’s voice and do it. That’s why I have Richard Mull on this week. And Richard you were a nice graduate of a Baptist School; you worked in denominational churches. No one anywhere taught you how to hear God’s voice; the most important thing. How did you and your wife begin to hear God’s voice?
Richard: Great question and it was you know such an interesting process. You know I teach people now to hear God in a matter of minutes and almost 100% hear God. But when you don’t have a mentor sometimes, you run on almost by trial and error but I was… the very first time that it became desperate I was beginning to really seek God in the Word for hours a day fasting and praying. I wanted to know how to hear God’s voice. I thought alright I’m going to walk up to total strangers like Cecil and give them a word from God. And a couple times where I felt pretty sure I had…
Sid: By the way let me just interject something here. I work a lot with tradition Jewish people and I try to show them. And I have what I consider the greatest proof imaginable that Jesus is the Messiah. But there is almost like spiritual scales over their eyes and they don’t hear me. But one word from God; one miracle, one sign and wonder and the scale just disappears and then they hear the truth. And they receive Jesus; this is so important would you agree Richard?
Richard: Oh yeah, oh yeah. What’s interesting is how many people when you hear God and you give them a word from God it touches people more deeply than anything I could say.
Sid: Okay, tell me the steps that occurred for you to hear God for yourself.
Richard: At first I wanted to do it like Cecil because that was my only experience. And I had things that came to me but I was too afraid to go up to a total stranger and try to do the same thing. And that’s kind of like jumping into the deep end of the pool and so I would ask God’s forgiveness. I’d think I had something to say to someone but how would I know that this is God? So it began for me when I was doing a college retreat; I was seeing so much in scripture I was fasting and praying and crying out to God every day because I wanted to hear His voice. I wanted experience God the way Jesus taught His disciples. I had been asked to speak at this college retreat. And this girl began to pull her shirt and pull her hair and rise.” And I was just a baby in hearing God’s voice and I had been in the “Is this God is this me?” I didn’t have the luxury of figuring that out so I said “God Show me what to do.”
Sid: This was a demon manifesting; did you realize that?
Richard: I had never seen that before; it was a Baptist College Retreat at a mega church and so I had to do what I believed was coming from God. And the girl got freedom; and I turned around and explained to the group what happened and why I did what I did like I understood it. But it was like I knew this is not coming from me even the explanation was not coming from me. I had never experienced anything like that before; I was actually thinking I hope somebody takes good notes because this is really good stuff and I won’t remember it.
Sid: What exactly did you say to this girl that was writhing with a demon controlling her?
Richard: I was led to pray in the Name of Jesus; the blood for Jesus I was saying things in relation to those… first of all you have good theological training you know that those are two important truths but they’ve never been practical. They’ve always been theoretical and theological and right now I need what works. Well, it does work and if you have time to think about it you may come up with it on your own but I was totally at a loss. But the Holy Spirit said “There is power in My Name, rebuke it in My Name.” And so I rebuked the spirit in the Name of Jesus and I couldn’t tell you the words that I said but it had to do with covering her in the blood of Jesus Christ and forgiveness that is in the blood of Jesus. And that breaks the rights that the enemy has and now I do all the time and I understand it and no why it works and how it works. And then it was just I’m saying what I believe the Spirit of God is leading me to say. I did feel prompted to pray in tongues and I knew that I was at a Baptist group and I’d never done anything in tongues publicly and I was like “Oh thanks a lot God.”
Sid: In addition to that you were shouting something; what were you shouting?
Richard: When I finished the tongues I felt impressed to shout freedom in Jesus Name and that was one that I really had a hard time with. Because I thought I must have been watching some TV evangelist I had to pick this up somewhere.
Sid: That’s not you is it? (Laughing)
Richard: Naw, I had never done that before.
Sid: In a Baptist Church! (Laughing)
Richard: Yep, and so I did it in obedience to the Lord. And then it was like I had understanding of the meaning of everything that I did and could explain why I did it. But I knew that that understanding wasn’t coming from me; it was coming by the Spirit even that.
Sid: Even more important what was going on with this woman?
Richard: She got free; she actually immediately after I shouted freedom in Jesus Name she looked at me and put her head down like she was majorly embarrassed because all this happened in front of everybody. Beautiful young woman she was the pastor’s daughter’s best friend. And so I pulled her aside and she said “This is only happened before where the presence of God was and I go to a psychiatrist; I’m on medication for the voices but as soon as you walked in the room the voices went crazy.”
Sid: So in other words demons go crazy when the presence of God is maybe that’s why in a lot of churches the demons you don’t even know that people have demons. I mean does that make sense? (Laughing)
Richard: She said “I picked this church because I knew the power of God wasn’t here.”
Sid: That’s why she went there (Laughing) but she got apprehended by the Spirit of God. Then from that point you started hearing God’s voice but did you know it was God’s voice?
Richard: It wasn’t long; you know it was because I began to have people contact me and want ministry. And I thought “You don’t want ministry from me, I don’t know what I’m doing.” And I tried to find someone else who would do it. And when I would minister to people God would show up; He would show me things, He would tell me things. And it was always I felt like I’d leave floating off the ground because I would know stuff about people’s past; I would hear things by the Spirit. And it helped me to grow in confidence; but that was the only place that I listened.
Sid: You know I happen to believe what you’re describing to me is normal and what most people experience is not normal. I happen to believe the first believers in the Messiah they were all normal. This was normal for them. How about someone that’s saying right now “Oh, Richard Mull he just has a special gift from God; I can’t do it.” What would you say to them?
Richard: I’d teach them the most… I’d teach kids how to handle God’s voice when they hear God; Baptist youth groups. I’ve taught them, every kid in the Youth Group hears God. It isn’t rocket science I think it is supposed to be the norm. In fact on that college retreat I called it Extreme Christianity and it was really a play on words. I used a lot of videos from extreme sports. But what we would call extreme was the norm. “How many of you want to be a normal Christian.” And every kid in the room stood up and I was shocked because I had painted a new picture. And the funny thing is I had never cast one demon out; I had never experienced what I was looking at in the book of Acts. But I was calling them to that type of Christian life.
Sid: Your heart when that was going on your heart had to be just beating; that first deliverance you were involved in. You must have been scared out of your socks.
Richard: I wanted to find the exit, yeah I was ready to leave because I was like “God not here; not now.” That was exactly what I was asking for He was doing but it was also very inconvenient because He hadn’t taught me how to do it. It was on the job training so it was interesting because for six months if I was leading worship somewhere someone would manifest demons. If I was preaching somewhere someone would manifest demons. It was like; it was like God said “You want me to disciple you, you want Me to teach you? I’m going to do it.”
Sid: Okay, our time is slipping away and this Bible is too important. I want people to understand it. Out of curiosity why did you pick the NET, the New English Translation for your Bible?
Richard: The New English translation was one of the more accurate translations; it was Dallas Theological so we wanted to use one of the versions that was highly valued for its authenticity, so that’s part of why it was chosen. The color coding goes back to first of all the words that God Himself spoke. I grew up with the Red Letter Edition and the Words that Jesus spoke. I began to trace every time that God spoke; I had no idea how much scriptures was God speaking first person. So we colorize that purple to represent His majesty. Then we got every angel dream, angel and vision colorized in blue because God speaks through messengers. And then we have scripture colorized brown where God speaks through a human component and brings the message from God but through a human being. And then we’ve got yellow for every miracle because action speaks louder than words. And God has often speaking, he’s reveling himself through the miracles signs and wonders. And finally green represents every time the scripture talks about God speaking about God’s voice. So it could be as simple as the Lord said or the voice of the Lord is powerful.
Sid: But you know what I’ve released everything supernatural you have color coded in this Bible. So you’ll have a laminated bookmark which tells you what each color means and when you get to that you mediate on it and literally the Word is going to become flesh. And everything you’re reading about you’re going to start doing but you also need instructions.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Sr. Pastor of Miracle Place Church in Baton Rouge Parish, Louisiana. We found out that Ricky was in what TV portrays as the fun life. He started out with thing like alcoholic and marijuana and quickly moved into hard drugs and shooting heroin, and then became a dealer. He got arrested a number of times and he escaped from jail; they were going to put him in prison. And he was running from the police in the woods for 56 days. He had no water; he had no food; I mean the things he had to go through to survive it’s unbelievable. And he finally went to his mother’s house and his mother didn’t even recognize him because he had dropped so much weight. And he had been just living in the wild like a wild person for 56 days. And so the police caught him, he was booked; he was facing life in prison. He’s in the cell and officer’s that was involved in that chase trying to find him when he was in the woods walks in. His name is Officer James and he sees him in the cell and he gives him a Bible. What happened next Ricky?
Ricky: Sid I’m hopeless my friend; I’m facing a life sentence in Angola. Twenty-two years old watched my whole life flash before me because of chasing the wrong things in life; drugs and alcohol; the party life. And so here I am looking for answers; their talking about giving me a life sentence and I realized that I wasted my life. Some kind of way that I’ve wasted my life; I’ve gotten off I’m chasing the wrong thing. I’m doing the wrong thing and now I’m in jail so I started looking for answers. And so I think that every person needs to be honest with themselves and asking this one question. “What in the world is the vision of life? What is the purpose for life?” And that’s what I started asking myself. I got real here I am in jail and this is reality and this is serious. And so I started looking for answers and Ernest James the Jailer; and by the way he is the one that chased me across the field. He brought me a Bible back and he said Ricky he says, “Every question that you need answered the answer will be found in this book,” and man I was desperate; just desperate. So I started reading the Bible. And as I started reading the Bible I realized that life was really about serving God and was really about serving people and doing that which was right. And so the more I read the more hungry I got for His word and then ultimately Sid something supernatural happened in my heart and my life. And all I can say is the desire in my life; all of the sudden the desire to want to live in the world; to chase drugs and to chase woman and to do the party thing all of a sudden in my heart in my life I had another desire a desire to want to love; a desire to want to serve; a desire to want to do what was right. And so that’s what’s taking place in my heart and in my life. And you know I reached a place where I was sick and tired. I call it sick and tired of being sick. And that’s where there’s a lot of people in our world today and they’ve tried all the things of the world and yet there’s still something missing in their life.
Sid: Okay, so alright you’re in jail you’re reading the Bible you now get sentenced to prison what happened there?
Ricky: They sent me to penitentiary and what I did was I committed my heart to God from the Bible. And so I went on to jail and in jail I used that time to become all that I could possibly be for God. I used that time to study the Bible. Did over 100 Bible correspondence courses…
Sid: Now what did they sentence you to?
Ricky: They sentenced me to 7 years in the Department of Corrections from St. Francisville. Now I still got the charges that I’m facing in New Orleans which is possession with the intention to distribute 14 pounds of Marijuana and an ounce of Ecstasy there. So they sent me right on to the penitentiary and…
Sid: So what is prison like?
Ricky: Prison is like being caged like an animal; prison puts you in a tremendous bondage like on a chessboard. You’re in checkmate; you can’t go backwards; you can’t go forward you are captive you’re in bondage it’s a terrible feeling. I’ll never forget I was standing in the yard; I saw the guard towers and here’s the guard up there with a rifle in their hand and razor wire on the fences. As I look through the razor wire it was almost like this is a bad dream; this is a terrible nightmare. I can’t believe that I’m in prison because I’m a middle-class guy; I came from a pretty good family moneywise. And how did I get here?
Sid: Now you had at this point accepted the Lord, but even in prison you backslid a little bit. And you felt like God spoke to you; tell me what did He say.
Ricky: Well Sid I started hanging out with people I shouldn’t have been hanging out with at one time. And of course I had just started living for God so I was real young. They convinced me to go out in the yard and smoke a joint. And so here I am on the yard, I smoke a joint but when I smoked that joint I felt a conviction in my heart that I had never felt before. I knew that I was a different person; I knew that life was not for me anymore. Something supernatural had taken place in my life as a result of committing my life to the Lord. And so I went into the dormitory I was so convicted I didn’t want anybody to see me and I felt strange and so I was scared to even face anybody. I got up on my top bunk; I pulled the covers over my head and I asked God to forgive me no less than 1,000 times. Then it seemed that I was brought to a crossroad in my life in the valley of decision. And this was the crossroad; “If you choose to live for Me (God) I will give you your wife back and I will cause My blessing to be in your life. But if you choose today at the crossroad to go the way of drugs the way you’ve been living you are going to lose everything and you’re going to live half of your life in prison.” That’s what I heard in my heart. And I made a decision with my freewill that for me we were going to serve God and we were going to do what was right. And I made that decision 18 years ago and it’s been the greatest decision that I’ve ever made. I got a wonderful wife; my wife is still with me thank You Lord. I got great kids and a dynamic church that I pastor.
Sid: How long did you spend in prison?
Ricky: I did right at 4 years almost 4 years.
Sid: Four years but according to what you should have had you should have had life.
Ricky: But something supernatural happened there too Sid because I wasn’t even supposed to come up for parole. Three felony convictions; I had 3 felony convictions and if you’re convicted to 3 felonies you’re not eligible for parole. Yet they still brought me on the parole board and gave me parole. I had favor! Listen let me tell you something happens when you serve God.
Sid: Now you were concerned, and of course your wife is saved now but you were concerned when you were in prison your wife wasn’t saved. Did you pray much about her?
Ricky: My goodness I had over a 100 Bible correspondent courses I did and I had many of those correspondent course praying for my wife. And ultimately prayed my wife in and that’s what rescued and salvaged my marriage. I would not be married today if it wouldn’t have been for my commitment to serve God.
Sid: Now the thing that intrigued me wasn’t anything that you said so far. The thing that I heard about you Pastor Ricky, and by the way how large is your church today?
Ricky: Eight hundred and fifty people.
Sid: And did you take over a big church?
Ricky: No sir; we started from scratch and I’ll tell you I’ve taken people off the streets. We’ve built this church with people that came off the streets with drugs and alcohol. I have what we call an “All way house.” And that means just simply “All the way for God!”
Sid: Half way doesn’t work.
Ricky: No, if you want a halfway house we’ll find a half way. If you want to go all the way and by the way Sid in anything that you want to do in life and…. you got to be committed; you got to go all the way. And if you go all the way…
Sid: So in drugs you went all the way and in crime you went all the way; and now you’re going all the way for God.
Ricky: Always have been 100%
Sid: But Ricky the thing that intrigued me is not anything that you’ve said so far about you. The thing that intrigues me about you is you had a revelation of God’s love and you communicate that; you exude it to the people. Tell me what that was.
Ricky: What I found out that it’s not about religion; it’s not about tradition; it’s just simply loving God and loving people. And if we’ll just live by that principal then God’s blessing and God’s favor will be upon us and in our life.
Sid: Now listen so many miracles are taking place in your church but we’ll stop right here. I’ll tell you what Mishpochah I believe that you’re going to get a physical healing on tomorrow’s broadcast. Do you know someone caught up in drugs; caught up in the glamor of the fast life? They may not be a dealer; they maybe at the early stages but there are so many people that are about ready to take the path that Ricky took and many of them will die before they have a chance to really live.