Sid: I have on the telephone Margy Palm. What you are about ready to hear almost sounds like a movie almost sounds like something that doesn’t happen in real life almost sounds like something in the Book of Acts. But it did happen and Margy I’m going to take you back to December 11, 1981. And that morning you were praying a great deal in the Spirit were you praying it more than normal or was that what you usually prayed Margy?
Margy: Oh I prayed a lot more than normal. That morning I distinctly remembered waking up and saying “Lord I’ll do anything you want me to do for You today. And then right after I prayed that prayer I was getting ready to go down town for to do a volunteer for job downtown and I had this tremendous burden come in on me and into me. And I had had this happen before where I knew that it was a burden from the Holy Spirit to pray but I felt this tremendous heaviness inside. And all I wanted to do was pray and I had 2 small children, I had a lady that was watching them that day and but it was time for me to go down to this volunteer job. So I went downstairs and got in my car and threw my Bible in the car and all of these evangelistic tapes I was listening to and this little notebook scripture that I was compiling. And I just could not quit praying in the Spirit I could not quit it was an overwhelming heavy feeling. And I had remembered in years past I had learned from a man named Kenneth Hagen that I mean not from personally from me talking to him but from one of his tapes where he was talking about intercession that when you have a burden like to pray keep praying until you get victory. Until and he said “What I mean by that is when you feel like it should lifted off of you and you feel like praising just you know just keep yielding to it.” So I had learned that and I had done that you know before at different times so I was aware that it was a burden from the Holy Spirit so I just yielded myself to it and I prayed. And I prayed all the way down to this volunteer job and even while I was in the place where I was helping out the girl in charge there said “Is there something wrong with you?” Because I kept going back and forth into the ladies room praying. Nobody really knew what I was doing I was just king of doing it secretly but this went on for 5 hours and they let me go from the volunteer job. They said “You know why don’t you just go home you seem like you’re a little disturbed about something.” So I went out and left the volunteer job got in my car and when I got in my car the burden totally lifted off of me and I felt like praising the Lord. Which was exactly what I did I started singing praises in my car and I knew whatever it was I had prayed it through. Well unbeknownst to me I had not read the paper that morning the headlines of the paper declared that there was this man loose in San Antonio. He had at 2AM the previous morning he had killed a girl at a bar in San Antonio he tried to steal her car and she went out to her car and he shot her in the face. It was awful and then it also stated that there was a girl that he had raped and brutally murdered in Corpus Christy the week before. And he had another girl tied up in a motel room in an area it’s a real kind of seedy street but in back of it it’s a very beautiful area of San Antonio. And they suspected the police suspected that they knew where he was they thought he was in this motel which he was in this very seedy street in San Antonio. And they had raided this motel room and he jumped out of the window and got on a bus and it was he was circling San Antonio on this bus and ended up in a Kmart in San Antonio. Nobody knew he was at the Kmart but the article just stopped with the fact that they had raided the motel room and he jumped out and they couldn’t find him and they were circling the city looking for him. And I didn’t know a thing about any of this stuff.
Sid: Oh there were a few more details that I read in your report and that was he was on the FBI’s list of one of the most one out of the 10 Most Wanted Men in America.
Sid: He had brutally raped and murdered over 30 women.
Sid: And even one just a few hours just before you and another thing you did not know is that all of the women looked the same had a particular type of look.
Sid: Which you just happened to have. Okay so you’re driving your car and then what happened?
Margy: So I’m now after praying the 5 hours and the heaviness has lifted off I’m singing to the Lord on the way home. And on the way home I kept thinking about that I wanted to go to this Kmart which is nothing…this store is not at all by my house in fact there was a Kmart very close to my house but for some reason I wanted to go to this one that was kind of centrally located in San Antonio. So I drove over there and I wanted to go to a Radio Shack over there so I went to that and then I looked over at the Kmart and decided I needed a few more things there. And um unbeknownst to me this man was sitting right in front of the Kmart watching me and he’d been there he told me that he’d been there the 3 hours just sitting there didn’t know what he was going to do. So I walked in got what I needed walked out and you know I never noticed that anybody was following me or anything like that I got to my car and the next thing I realized there was something in my back I could feel something in my back. And I turned around and here was this man standing there with this 38-caliber revolver sticking in my…you know he had been sticking this gun in my back and I was totally shocked when I saw this.
Sid: This just doesn’t happen in real life Margy.
Margy: It’s like a movie it was like a bad dream.
Sid: Just as a little bit of background tell me you’re married you had your children.
Margy: Yes 2 small kids at the time you know that their…
Sid: And obviously you’re a pretty strong Christian but again you were directed by God to go to that Kmart that’s what you’re telling me.
Sid: You had prayed in a victory that’s what you’re telling me when you started singing after all of that intercessory prayer. And all of a sudden there’s a gun in your back what was your first thought?
Margy: Well my first thought was “You’re going to die.” You know you’re…some people might not know this but the Bible says you’re a body, a soul and a spirit. And you’re soul you’re soulish realm is your mind. And the thought came into my mind is “You’re going to die today.” Because I could feel the terror around this man was tremendous and of course this gun was not a normal hand gun it was about 3 times the size of a normal hand gun it was huge. And when I turned around he jabbed it into my ribcage and he told me that he said “I’m the guy that killed a girl last night at Maggie’s and he said “I cut out a man’s heart in prison and I will kill you if you don’t do exactly what I tell you to do.” And I you know my mind just I mean like I said at first I thought “I’m going to die” but what was amazing was that right after that the words that came out of my mouth were “Do you know Jesus Christ?”
Sid: Oi e vey Margy you have got chutzpa that’s a Hebrew word it means nerve we’re going to leave that right here and pick up on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: My guests in the studio are Doug and Jean Jones teachers with Shiloh Place Ministries from Conway, South Carolina. You’re familiar with Shiloh Place because of Jack Frost and the wonderful teaching I’ve had him as a guest a couple of times on Messianic Vision. But we’re finding out that what we’re talking about here is bitterroots strongholds in your life that can affect your marriage, can affect your relationship with your children, affect your relationship with your church, can affect your relationship with your employer, in fact it can affect every relationship in your life. And normally it’s “Oh if they would only change but guess what you can see the fruit there’s a root somewhere hidden in you that’s releasing that type of fruit. Now we were talking on yesterday’s interview Doug about 8 common ways that stronghold are built within us. The first was the generational strongholds like your father had anger Doug and then you had this anger and then deep hurts or wounds we’ve received whether they’re a verbal or sexual abuse or… and we went over that. And perhaps Jean we’ll start with you, what is the 3rd way that that strongholds are built within us?
Jean: That’s probably a misinterpretation of love and how we perceive love or rejection. And many times our parents love us but we still perceived that we’re not loved. And I know that there’s a book out about incubator babies that they feel rejected because they’re not held at birth. And our daughter was born 34 years ago and she was an incubator baby so we were not allowed to hold her accept when we went to the hospital to feed her at feeding times. And so she felt very rejected and would be very clingy but yet we loved her and from the time that she was home we always held her and took care of her.
Sid: What happens in later life in someone that either perceived not being loved, even though they were, or literally not being loved what kind of fruit results?
Jean: Sometimes they’re in and out of relationships and in and out of different kinds of sicknesses, have a hard time establishing relationships sometimes there are just different characteristics.
Sid: Let’s go to the next point.
Doug: The next point is having inner vows that we make about like I saw my father and I said “I would never be like that man.” I made a vow inwardly that I would not be like him and I ended up being the same way in many respects. Inner vows that we take…
Sid: Those things are very powerful but you would not think that they are that powerful but they are.
Doug: You can have an inner vow that is so powerful that it can affect your very life being. And it can be so strong a death wish or a death vow that you have that you really don’t think that you ought to be here that you want to go on and be with the Lord and you consciously don’t even realize it but that vow is working on your physical body and begins to make parts of your physical body function that it starts to just shutting down.
Doug: And the death process starts.
Sid: What do you do about that?
Doug: You confess it as sin you may take ownership of the responsibility and don’t blame the person that you were judging and making a vow against I won’t do this because of this and because of that. Take ownership and when you take ownership and confess your faults and then God can deal with you and correct whatever it is that’s happened in your life.
Sid: Now let’s see the next one we have touched upon and that’s words that people speak over us they’re literally according to the Bible called curses.
Doug: That’s right and as a little child in school I remember my teacher telling me in the hearing the kids in the break fussing at each other “Suzie said this or Billy said this” and the teacher said “Sticks and stones will break your bones but words will never hurt you.” Now that’s just a lie out of the pit of hell.
Sid: We’ve all heard that.
Doug: Words spoken over someone will hurt them
Sid: How can you break the effect of those words?
Doug: Well if someone’s speaks something over you renounce it and say “I just I come against that.”
Sid: Or well even as a child if it was done the mother says “You’ll never amount to anything.”
Doug: Well as a child you’re at the mercy of your parents at that time but when you grow to the point of your own accountability for that. “Did I judge my mother for that, did I become angry when she said this, did I become just what she said?” It does it goes right back to your own responsibility to the words that were spoken over you. Did you judge them for it?
Sid: It’s so easy to blame someone else but if we don’t understand our sin in the involvement we’ll never be free we’ll be the prisoner.
Doug: Our sin connects us to the sin that goes against us. Until we confess our sins we’re tied to that sin if someone else has sinned against us because of our sin of judgment. The next one goes through false teaching and false doctrines the young man that came to the seminar one time came and he just could not get set free from the inability that he had to function in church properly, he was a Christian but he just couldn’t trust Father God to make a decision for him he just he just always messed-up emotionally. And we found out that when he was a young man his father died when he was about 8 years old and he went to the funeral and one of the doctrines of what was plugged into this little boys head was a statement that the pastor made at the funeral. And the pastor made this in a way not trying to hurt the family but he looked at the little boy and said “You know “Father God needed your daddy more than you do and that’s why your father was taken on to heaven because God needed him more than you do.” Now that’s doctrinally wrong it destroyed this boy’s ability to trust God to do what’s right and what’s fair. And he could not for a long time until he understood this he judged this man he judged God as being unfair and untrustworthy. “How could God need my daddy more than that little boy did?” And so he found out that doctrines are taught wrong. Number 7 is through ethnic and cultural backgrounds how you were raised was through American Indian through ancestral worship through the winds and the spirits and the sky and the trees and all of this. This came in through an ethnic and a cultural background. And these people suffer because of that and then they realize them worshipping the wind and the spirits or what have you have affected their ability to hear from God.
Sid: And what about the 8th?
Doug: Negative thinking patterns and false belief structures. The negative thinking patterns are things that we learn at a very small age and we do that as a way of trying to protect ourselves. And we get hurt we get wounded and we get hurt and we start thinking negatively about the person or the situation that hurt us and it builds this pattern of negative thinking. And then that becomes sin in our lives and then as long as that sin is un-dealt with then darkness comes into our life. And then we continue to let the darkness stay there it gives room to some type of demonic activity in our lives.
Sid: And so to reverse all of the things is the first thing is to look at where the problem came in and where not where someone sinned against us because in most instances they did. But where did we sin against them by judging them instead of their action do I have that right?
Jean: That’s right and there are also positive good judgments like we judge where we’re going to go to church, what doctor and dentist we’re going to go to. But we’re talking about a judgment that we’ve made when we’ve been wounded or been hurt and that’s a bitterroot judgment.
Sid: Let’s look at the reverse let’s look at that there are actually laws to have healthy relationships.
Doug: That’s right there are 4 basic laws that scripture teaches us the first one is honoring your parents. Ephesians 6:1-3 it says in whatever way you honor your parent and in whatever way we dishonor them a curse comes. And in my own life I dishonored my parents in many ways. My father dishonored me in that area but he handled finances I thought he was stingy I thought he was just too tight with the money but he had 5 children to take care. As a little child I didn’t realize the responsibility he had and he gave us everything we needed but not everything I wanted.
Sid: So curses are triggered.
Doug: I lost 3 businesses, the last one everything we owned we lost because of my judging the way my father did finances was to a large extent the result of it. The second is the law of judging and it says “If we judge someone for a particular characteristic that same thing will come back on us.” That’s in Luke 37 and 38 and the law of sowing and reaping in Galatians tells us if we sow we’re going to reap more than what we sow. It says don’t be mocked God is not mocked whatever a man sows he’s going to reap. But there’s a principal of sowing and reaping that we sow one seed we gain many many more. I just the other night was looking at an ear of corn when we were eating. And on that one ear of corn there was 7 to 800 grains of corn. And one seed planted in the ground produced 3 ears with 7 to 800 grains on it. So that what was replaced from that one seed was 2400 times that was planted.
Sid: I don’t want that.
Sid: What about that 4th law of becoming what we judge in others Roman’s 2:1.
Doug: I can go ahead and take care of that it says we become this way because I’ll never raise my children the way my father did. I made that mistake I will never raise my children the way my father did. And I thought I wasn’t because I didn’t beat them but I beat them verbally so I became exactly the same thing that I judged my father.
Sid: And there are questions that we have to ask ourselves are we duplicating things in our lives that we resented in our parents or someone else. Oh are we acting out an attitude, emotion or behavior that we said that we’d never do? Has the Holy Spirit working us in area of our life that we seem powerless to overcome? We just don’t have time to go on.
Sid: My guest right here in the studio Doug and Jean Jones they’re teachers with Shiloh Place Ministries in Conway, South Carolina. We’re talking about a specialty area that has changed their life as Doug like to say he was married for 39 years, 38½ of those 39 years he was happy but his wife wasn’t she was ready for a divorce. And she prayed and you know a lot of times we say “Oh if my wife, oh if my husband would only change everything would be fine.” But the only one we have control over is ourselves. And as Doug thought nothing was wrong with him the problem was with his wife. Jean you probably thought the same thing “Nothing wrong with me but the problems with Doug.”
Jean: That’s right.
Doug: I was such a good manipulator I had her believing that it really was her problem at times.
Sid: Well a lot of people don’t understand the signs if you will of emotional trait or unhealthy traits. A recent study showed that 82% of the people in this country are emotionally unhealthy. I think the study’s wrong I think that it’s much higher than 82% but if there’s selfishness going on in your life, if it’s a pleasure seeking mentality I believe in God I have my life insurance policy I’m a good person and I want to have fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. Or you disregard the consequences of your actions or if your involved in addictions how about overeating we hear drugs and alcohol but could overeating be in that same category?
Doug: That’s part of the addiction overeating is just part of the abuses of ourselves.
Sid: And compulsions and dysfunctional behavior such as you don’t trust anyone or you don’t want to talk because you don’t want to get hurt, or you don’t want to feel. And these are all I’m wondering if television is not one I know I’m putting the blame elsewhere but television you kind of you want to be entertained all of the time. And intimacy with one another and intimacy with God it almost becomes an artificial world that we’re living in.
Jean: That was one of the problems in our home.
Sid: What do you mean?
Jean: Doug would lose himself in TV. When he would come home at night he would be tired he would just lose himself in the TV and there was no communication. Even though I insisted that we’d have devotions so he turned it off for devotions and we’d have devotions with the children. And I think that that produced in them also something that they used to say “Well he really doesn’t want to have devotions why are we having devotions?” So you know the wife really can’t promote herself as the spiritual head because the children know what’s going on they know what’s happening.
Sid: And Doug do you still lose yourself in the TV do you use that as the drug of choice?
Doug: No I do not I stopped it.
Sid: Was that a tough thing to break?
Doug: Yes it was and in another sense no it wasn’t I struggled with it for awhile but then when I finally allowed the Holy Spirit to work with me it was an easy decision to not let it be my drug of choice.
Sid: Now one of your problems was anger.
Doug: That was an Achilles heel.
Sid: Because you had judged your father and you reaped the fruit in your generation you did end up doing. And some people do end doing exactly the same some people end up doing exactly opposite. But you did exactly the same as your father and I said to you well yes you got free the root was exposed and you got free but you still had those trigger points in the thing called the flesh. And there is no one on the face of this earth that can trigger you better than your wife. I think that’s one of her purposes.
Doug: That’s right.
Sid: And so she triggers you now and you said “What you do is you the first reaction is you…I don’t want to put words in your mouth you ask is it a Holy Spirit moment or what did you say?
Doug: When I prayed about it and found out where the root cause was and I confessed that as sin my life I said “Father I want to be free from this anger this bitterness that’s down deep inside of me and Father when someone says something to me or against me or my automatic reaction would be violence or explosion or verbal abuse Lord give me a second to think about what my decision is because Lord I don’t want to do this.” And He has been a perfect gentleman to start with He will give you that second or that 2 seconds to think will I respond the old way or I won’t I want to respond the new way. So He gives you a choice what we have done over the years what I did over the years I didn’t have a choice because I had a habit structure built in within me.
Sid: It was just like driving a car you didn’t even have to think.
Doug: You didn’t even have to think about it it was automatic and yet she’s said “A” I said “B” it was an automatic thing and I didn’t think about it.
Sid: Jean did you have some automatic deals going too?
Jean: Mainly I judged the main thing that I used to do was just judge Doug I blame-shifted I thought everything was his fault. Like I said, “If he gets straight we’d be fine as a family.” So I had to ask him to forgive me for all of those years of judging him.
Sid: Doug did this help you
Doug: Yes it did, yes it did.
Sid: I mean you’re the root problem if I was to be looking from the outside in I see you verbally abusing your wife, I see you exploding, I see you losing your cool so I might say “You are the problem.” But something happened in the invisible realm when your wife confessed that she had a fault too.
Doug: Well it just enhanced my understanding of what Father God had for me as a husband and as the head of the family. Most of the responsibility in the home is in the father’s hands and I so abused and misused the responsibility. And I see that God is allowing me to once again get a hold of responsibility in my wife coming to me and saying “You know Doug forgive me I’ve sinned against you I’ve accused you this way.” And it made me understand more deeply what it means to be a father, husband, and a head of the home the way that God wants me to be.
Sid: I asked you this before but I need to ask you this again Jean “How different is it today as opposed to the way that it was? Do you want to divorce your husband?
Jean: No the difference is night and day, but when he said that the Holy Spirit gave him a second and the Holy Spirit does that and we begin to expand our time. And the same time that we get angry it’s like the Holy Spirit would give him more time to make a decision and then more time until he begins to walk in a new way of living instead of in the old response.
Doug: A new habit structure was developed.
Jean: But the first time he got mad I called up Jack and Trish and…
Sid: That’s Jack Frost….
Jean: And my pastor, Jack Frost and I said “He’s not changed he’s still mad he got angry just like he used to.” And that’s when they had to walk me through that and they said “We’re constantly being transformed it’s a process.” And I had to change my confession and instead of saying “Doug hasn’t changed” I began to say “Doug has changed he’s just reacting to the old way but Doug has changed.” And so that began to change the confession in me where I didn’t look to him and say he hasn’t. But God is a positive God and I began to confess that Doug has changed. And those old familiar spirits will lurk around and wait and see until we’re tired or…
Sid: They like to more in in fact didn’t they do that with Jesus when He’s fasting and then it says the devil came to Him when He was in that weakened state.
Jean: Yes and then he went away for a season so the devil may go away for a season but he will wait until there’s sickness or tiredness or working all of the time and he will try to get in at that time and bring the old patterns back. And then that’s when we begin to pray and we learn to pray together against those patterns.
Sid: Let’s shift gears for a little bit in your tapes you talk about or Jack Frost talks about 8 common ways that strongholds are built within us. Explain some of the ways that these strongholds are built.
Doug: Well the first one I already explained and that would be the generational iniquities of our forefather that he passed on to us. And number 2 would be the deep wounds and hurts that we receive at the hands of others when we get hurt and we get wounded then we build these walls around to protect ourselves. And there are 5 major areas that the wounds come in sexual, emotional and verbal and even captivity like putting a child in a home and not allowing him to do anything on his own. He can’t leave his house, he can’t leave his room he has to stay there and he cannot leave. Or you can do the same thing to a wife you can make her stay home and she cannot be free to go shopping or to do this or to do that because you’re so jealous that you hold your wife and your family into captivity. And that puts hurts and wounds in to your wife and your family in captivity. And there’s also the psychological type of hurts and wounds that we put into children particularly promising children that I’ll take you fishing tomorrow, when I get off of work Saturday we’ll do this, we’ll do that, we’ll play ball. And when you come home you’re tired and you tell your son that I really don’t have time to do this.
Sid: Now when you talk about sexual wounds are you talking about being sexually abused.
Doug: Sexually abused incest, and that’s common and much more common than I like to believe but it’s common through our counseling and ministering because there’s a lot of this. And people become so hurt and wounded and so inward that they are trying to protect themselves they think that it’s their fault and there’s something wrong with them that caused the person do this and that there’s something wrong with them. And they build these walls around them to protect themselves.
Sid: Now Jean you were being verbally abused and didn’t even realize it. How would someone know if they are being verbally abused?
Jean: Well I began to change personalities like for 18 years of my life I thought I was the most wonderful person in the world and then after 29 years of marriage before we got help I became very inward and really thought that I was the problem. And people used to tell me that I was so different when I with Doug and when I was without him. Because I was president of Aglow one time and I would just be a different person and I would be free to be who I wanted to be. But when I was with Doug I would just withdraw because I knew that he was going to get angry at me or correct me in which he did a lot in public. And so I was just really withdrawn when I was around him.
Sid: Does he do that a lot in public now?
Sid: When you realized you did it to her and you obviously didn’t realize…
Doug: No I didn’t realize.
Sid: …but when you realized how did you feel about that?
Doug: At times I was sickened that I would treat my wife that way that I love her deeply I’ve always loved her but didn’t know how to express the love. And when I found out how short…what a short handle that I was giving her in my response to love to her it sickened me at times how I responded to hurt her.
Sid: My goodness our time is slipping away from us we have so much to cover.
Sid: And I’ve got 2 Jewish people on the telephone they’re married to each other that are red hot for the Messiah. I’ll speak first with Geoffrey Cohen. I’m speaking to them at their home at Ventura California. And Geoffrey you were raised in South Africa and had a very good Orthodox upbringing are there many Jewish people in South Africa?
Geoff: Well when I was growing up there was about 120,000 I believe now it runs between 70 and 80,000.
Sid: It’s still a pretty pretty good size Jewish community.
Geoff: Yeah it’s very strong economically very strong in the business world over there.
Sid: Well tell me about your Orthodox Jewish background.
Geoff: Well I went to an Orthodox Jewish Schools really from kindergarten of which even kindergarten was Orthodox Jewish. And most of my friends until my last 2 years of high school were all Jews so I had very little interaction with non-Jews of course that were around me time. But I was brought up in a very tight knit Jewish community because of Anti-Semitism in South Africa it made the Jewish Community even more tight knit.
Sid: You know I’m thinking as the world itself according to the word of God and according to what we’re seeing becomes increasing more anti-Semitic it will cause Jewish people to come back together if could have been lost in the United States but it will cause that. And what we’re believing is that it will cause Christians and Jews to bond together. But you did a nice Jewish thing you went to the university to study law.
Sid: Why did you go into the military was it required?
Geoff: Ah yeah I was actually in my second year of law in South Africa and I had to do it…it was mandatory to do the military it was never my desire to you know to serve in the military there because of apart-a and these things like that.
Sid: But you bumped into a lot of Anti-Semitism in the military why’s that.
Geoff: Well if you look at the historical roots of South Africa many of the Elfie-Connors that are the ancestors of the Dutch, German and French. But they’re called Elfie-Connors and many of them during the II World War or the I World War were sympathetic of the Germans. And of course the Nazi’s World War II mainly because of the tension between the British and them because the global at the turn of the century. And so of course there’s many Elfie-Connors who are wonderful Christians so that definitely the case but many of them are pretty Anti-Semitic because of that sort of Anti-British pro-German kind of sentiment that we experienced.
Sid: And you took up a very un-Jewish profession you took up boxing why is that?
Geoff: Yes well because although I’m not small I’m about 5’1 185 pounds which man Elfie-Connors are very big 200 pounds which describes normal over 6 ft.
Sid: Well I’ll just fit in fine there go ahead. (Laughing)
Geoff: (Laughing) Yeah so basically it was just to defend myself and I actually became quite good at boxing and so I was actually offered a professional boxing contract before I left the country. But I decided that boxing wasn’t for nice Jewish boys.
Sid: But what was why did you leave the country?
Geoff: Basically I just wanted to make my future outside of South Africa. In fact I would have gone to live in Israel and I would have served in the Israeli Army that was my desire but at that the time I was dating a nice Jewish girl in South Africa and because of my loyalty to her to stay in the country and go to the army. But really my heart was to go to Israel and become a citizen and serve in the Israeli Army.
Sid: You eventually did go to Israel.
Geoff: I did.
Sid: And live on a kibbutz.
Geoff: Yes I did.
Sid: And you met a man by the name of Frank tell me about him.
Geoff: Yeah I hope Frank’s listening to this because I’ve been trying to contact him for about 16 years. (Laughing) All that I remember about him is that he was the son of the Vice Secretary of the America Navy I believe it was in 1984. But really stood out to me about him is that he was a true born again Christian. And basically what happened was while we were on the kibbutz called “Shyin we were sitting outside and having a drink or 2 and just talking about world politics. And everybody had their opinion as is the case when you discuss politics you can have 20 opinions especially when many of them are Jewish you can have 100 opinions.
Sid: Of course a kibbutz is sort of a communal place that many Israelis live on and it was the way that Israel really started originally.
Sid: And so you’re just enjoying yourself and how did he start this subject?
Geoff: Well basically everybody was talking about their opinion of politics and if the Russians are right or the Americans are right or if the Arabs are right. And everybody was trying to decide “Should Israel have invaded Lebanon in 1982 and they were discussing this and everybody had their opinion. And then basically this guy started to speak and he said “The problem is not America, it’s not communism, it’s not capitalism he said the problem is sin.” And I thought “Oh no here we go now this guy is going to preach to us this is all we need now.”
Sid: Had anyone ever preached to you now?
Geoff: You know they had and I but I never touched home with me because I thought that it was God’s way of reaching the Gentiles, I thought that Jesus came for the Gentiles and that’s very nick for now the Gentiles can also have a relationship with God as well as us Jews. And so I was very happy for all of the Gentiles that the too could know God. But I believe that us Jews just go directly to God we didn’t need a mediator. But I’ve since determined that that’s not the case but that’s what I believed. And so I never heard the gospel presented in a way that was relevant to me or it made any sense to me.
Sid: But what did he say that had an impact on an Orthodox Jew from South Africa?
Geoff: Well seriously it wasn’t what he said although it was partly what he said. But what really had tremendous impact on me was this man’s zeal that he was absolutely willing to lay down his life for what he believed. And with the people around him I mean we some people got pretty mad at him so I just saw that he wasn’t wavering he was unmoved and he was fearless in his faith so that his conviction about what he believed is what’s impressed me the most. But then when he began to explain what sin was for the first time it made sense to me because many people don’t know this many Jewish people don’t have a normal concept of original sin like a Christian would know to be born in sin. Maybe not a real understanding of what sin is or what sin is and I didn’t. And he said basically every person is selfish and that’s why ever country and every nation wants their way and their culture and everything to predominate because they think that’s the best one. And because of that basic selfish nature people clash with each with each other and so for the first time it began to make sense. I thought “Oh that makes sense that’s why there’s wars and we clash and things like that because people are basically selfish. And so I began to understand what sin was for the first time and I began to make sense. And then he explained how the Lord had come into his life and set him free from a life of drug addiction and peer pressure and growing up in very high circles. Which I did as well in South Africa because my father was a very successful businessman so growing up under that pressure of can I make it can I follow in my Dad’s footsteps and all of that kind of thing. And his Dad being high in Washington he’d gone through the same kind of thing. And then he’d gotten saved and set free and filled with the Holy Spirit and he knew that his identity was in the Messiah in Yeshua in Jesus. And so he was secure now in his identity. And so that’s when it made a strong impression on me and began to make sense.
Sid: Now did you know that Jesus was Jewish?
Geoff: No I didn’t I thought maybe He was a Catholic or He was like one of those priests that wear those giant hats that are about 3 feet high or something like that.
Sid: When did you find out that Jesus was Jewish?
Geoff: Well Frank began to talk to me well this happened to Jesus in Jerusalem and that happened to Jesus in Jerusalem and all of the various things that happened to Jesus and how they bought monuments where Jesus was supposed to have wept. And another church where you know He stopped and looked at someone and He was kind of cynical about you know building a church everywhere that Jesus was supposed to done something. And it wasn’t that that struck me but I thought why are you talking about Jesus in Jerusalem what was He doing there?
Geoff: And so for the first time I began to think you mean Jesus might be Jewish? I mean if He’s Jewish why did these people who call themselves Christians hate the Jews it didn’t make any sense to me. So I presumed of course that He can’t be Jewish because then non-Jews couldn’t possibly hate the Jews if He was Jewish then they would love the Jews automatically. So that’s why it kind of confused me. And I thought if He really is Jewish then you know this something I really have to look into.
Sid: Well you not only looked into it you had an encounter at the Jaffa Gate where I’ve been many times in Jerusalem.
Sid: Tell me the circumstances.
Geoff: Well basically after maybe a few days after Frank had shared with us and had been kind of a clash between him and some of the people that didn’t believe in the Lord I had planned to go to Jerusalem. And so what happened was when I went to Jerusalem is go to the Arab market or the shuck was the call it and you get really good bargains there. And I was with a friend of mine that was traveling with me a friend of mine from Zimbabwe and as we walked into the Jaffa Gate on your immediate left there is the Arab market you probably remember this there is long passage way whatever you call it a market on either side.
Geoff: And we were just beginning to walk towards the market when all of a sudden Jesus appeared to me as real as this television is or my house is or as real as you are on the other side but even more so. Jesus appeared he was standing about 20 feet away from me…
Sid: How did He look?
Geoff: Well he was dressed as He was 2000 years ago so He was wearing a robe but really the most striking thing more than anything else was His eyes. And people say “Well how did you know it was Jesus?” Well basically that’s my thing well how do you know that you saw God? I was looking at eternity and eternity was looking at me and when He looked at me it was incredible it was like He knew everything about me because right through me I was looking at eternity past and eternity future and yet He totally accepted me and loved me unconditionally and He spoke a word to me without opening his mouth and there’s no way for me to explain that its just what happened. And that one word was Hineini which means “Here am I in Hebrew.”
Sid: Hold that thought Mishpochah we’re going to pick up right here tomorrow….
Sid: I’ve got a Jewish man that’s red hot for the Messiah we find out that he was born in Odessa, Ukraine in 1950 to Jewish parents. He didn’t know much about Judaism it was at that time very difficult to be a practicing Jew. He was raised as an atheist. He left the Soviet Union although he was a great Star there in the Moscow Circus and come to the United States and with $150 he borrowed from the Jewish Community he started a business of acro-gymnastics one of the first in the United States and he won a National Championship himself and he had all of the money he needed but there was something missing. He got into drugs got out of control messed up his life spent money like it was water and you know once you’re hooked on cocaine. He even saw Jimmy Swaggert on television and said a prayer of salvation and something happened but he continued with his life of drugs. He went to Las Vegas with another Russian friend and things began to close in and you were I guess in a hotel room your friend was there and you cried out what did you cry out Igor Ashkinaszi?
Igor: That was just it was 4:00 in the morning I came extremely disappointed with myself me and my friend we walked into the same room he fell in his bed I fell my bed, he fell asleep immediately but I just could not sleep. My whole heart was just tormented and I said “What have I come to and my life has turned out to be absolutely nothing.” And I realized that there’s nothing to life. My friend was still struggling and my Russian Jewish friend was supposed to make it here you know to get some help he thought he was looking about $30,000 a year at that time. I was making just 6 months ago over $150,000 a year just cash you know, but now I was on drugs of course and discouraged and disappointed. In my heart I laid down and I cried “If there is God He alone can help me I don’t want to live in this body I don’t want to live in this situation I don’t know what to do I lived in communism, I lived in capitalism I was an athlete no body now I was poor I was rich and I don’t know what is the life? What do I belong to is there a God please God help me” and just at that moment my heart was so open and so broken I cannot describe to you my whole being was just I couldn’t even feel myself it was like I didn’t exist just my heart spoke. And suddenly I heard a voice, it was dark it was 4:00 in the morning Vegas windows was completely covered with those heavy curtains and you never know time in Vegas there was no clocks it was dark. But it was 4:00 in the morning I looked at the watch when I came and lay in bed. And suddenly I hear a voice “Igor.” I thought my friend called me Igor but he was sleeping he was snoring in fact at that moment I was gripped with fear I thought I cracked up completely. And I thought to myself “I don’t hear that voice it just seemed to me.” And then I hear it again “Igor I am your God.” And at that point I thought “That’s it I’m absolutely crazy now I know that I’m crazy because there is no God.” But He said “How can you think this you just called to Me and I answered you.” And truly I remember I did call Him God to help me and I said “And I said “No it can’t happen.” But I heard the voice outside of me and inside of me at the same time. It was a strong powerful voice so strong it was like a thunder and yet it was so gentle it was like my mother and father blended both together. I couldn’t deny there was a supernatural voice I’d never heard it could be in my mind it couldn’t be anything else. But it could be something else and I said to myself “But God. no God doesn’t exist.” And He answered on my thought “But I Am.” And at that moment for some reason I don’t know why I ask Him loud it was strange when I asked loud “Um, um, um are You talking to me like You talked to Moses?” Why I said it I have no idea the only time I heard about Moses was my grandmother one time told me when I was about Moses. And I said “Are You talking to me like You’re talking to Moses?” Surprised that I said it loudly and He laughed.” And that was the first time I heard God laughing and He said “Almost.” And now I think He said it because he didn’t want to hurt me but that was the question again I said loudly “But I know that You don’t exist” and this time He repeated strongly again. “But I Am what are you going to do with Me I Am?” That’s how he said to me at this point I felt in my heart I actually know that I talked to God I actually believed that God exist and the moment I knew in my heart I believed that God is the light broke through like the ceiling disappeared a brilliantly bright light with a silver light with gold streams like a veil with a golden rays in it I couldn’t even look at it. And it was not a light it was just a presence of God. And out of this light He said “Igor because you believe I am going to touch you now and you will never stop talking about Me.” And the light began to go down and it began to expand and descend on me. And where I was there was darkness but where the light was there was light and I could see that light and darkness in the middle. And as the light was moving upon me I begin to see my entire life in a whole but God knew everything about my life. I began to feel so bad about myself. Like I was repenting in my heart because I was in a meeting with God I was about to meet God face to face that was like I felt, I felt dirty I felt bad my whole life like a television video tape passed by me my whole…when I said something to somebody but meant something else. When I smiled but hated when loved I mean when I was double-hearted when people didn’t know what I meant but God knew always my heart and I felt bad. And at this moment the light….a hand came out of the light a human hand. Now I cannot tell whether a human hand came out of the light or light transformed into a human hand. I cannot remember I try to remember I always wanted to say it was a scarred hand but I don’t remember scars I just remember it was a hand and He touch me He touched my right shoulder. I just read recently Benny Hinn’s book “He Touched Me.” And I felt my God You actually touched me and the moment He touched me I died, I felt like I died, I died. And at the same time I was dying I felt death, I felt I was stiffening I was dying but suddenly at the same time another life starting pouring inside of me. Light life excuse me life full of joy, full of exaltation and the marrow of my bones began to sing and I’m not exaggerating I felt the music of heaven in my bones. I was filled with so much love and so much joy that I wanted to bring that same joy to my best friend and my worst enemy.
Sid: But then you asked God a question a very strange question you asked Him is Jesus Your Son?
Igor: At that moment first I jump to my feet and my heart began to shout actually God is Jesus is God I didn’t know why my heart was saying that shouting this. And so I screamed from the top of my lungs “God is, Jesus is God.” But then I stopped and I stopped and I said “Jesus.” How could I say this? And I asked and I look up again to this wonderful light I was basking in it and I said “God is Jesus Your Son?” And He said to me very gently not like He’d spoken to me before no with a strong voice but you almost could miss it if you weren’t spiritually so aware and so spiritually alive at that moment. He just said simply (softly) “Yes.” But when He said it was so dear to Him this question was so important so dear to Him this revelation is so special to Him He just said (softly) “Yes.” And when He said Yes that Yes just stuck to my heart until this day I just know that I know that I know that Jesus is the Son of God! I just knew that this is that same Jesus Yeshua that is the Savior I just knew that. And He said to me at that moment “You will never die you will be with me forever.” Oh the joy that flooded my soul I shouted from the top of my lungs again “God is Jesus! Jesus is God!” My friend jumped to his feet saw me at that state and that condition naturally he thought that I lost it.
Sid: Let me ask you a practical question “What about your smoking, your drinkings, your cocaine addiction?
Igor: That moment it disappeared!
Sid: Oh we’re out of time…
Sid: I’m speaking to Igor Ashkinaszi at his home in Brooklyn, New York. He was born in Odessa, Ukraine in 1950. In 1975 after becoming a star with the Muska Circus after winning championships in Odessa for acro-gymnastics he finally got out it wasn’t easy he went through all sorts of humiliation. At that time it was very difficult for a Jewish person to go to Israel. He actually stopped off in Vienna he stayed there for a few months and instead of going to Israel his mother and grandparents went to the United States. He didn’t speak any English he got kicked out of his first job I guess because he didn’t speak any English as a busboy. He finally got a job in New Orleans as an instructor in gymnastics but then with $150 you started the all American dream didn’t you Igor?
Igor: Yes I was looking at the Jewish Community Center and so then when my concert was over they asked if they could loan me $150 and with that I just bought paper, envelopes and a letter and it was sent I don’t know 500 people. And I started my first gymnastic school, acro-gymnastic school which became very popular very well to do. The school became…won first place in the nation, in fact 5 years in a row. I myself began to perform to brought myself back into shape to perform rather l United States National Championship. In fact 4 years in the row was appointed to be a United States National 1st honorary United States National Coach.
Sid: How well were you doing financially?
Igor: Financially in the beginning of course I started as a busboy and quickly was able to acquire a good some of money it was I had the school and had a lot of students. And enjoyed a very serious popularity in New Orleans everybody knew us everybody family wanted to be part because they started in school they wanted their child to take part in school. We had big shows every year.
Sid: I mean everything is going good why in the world would you try cocaine?
Igor: Well that’s that is that’s what we come to when we get everything we want in life. That’s what I always wanted to be I wanted to become an American I wanted to be accepted here in the country and I was in New Orleans it’s a very social city and the cities divided by social groups and I was able to break through those social groups and was accepted as a New Orleanian as an American. Many people came into me I received a lot of money I received everything all of the pleasures of the world. I’d say that somebody wanted to investigate I did and but it didn’t satisfy me. I asked myself “You have everything you wanted again an athlete of recognition of 1st place performing Johnny Carson, Mike Douglas, Merv Griffin Shows, I had my own show at the Superdome in New Orleans. And you know just making a lot of money having everything I’ve ever wanted but something was missing in my heart something was empty in my heart and I asked myself “What haven’t you yet tried.” And did one thing I didn’t try was drugs I never did drugs I drank I smoked like all Russians did, but I never had drugs. And a friend of mine had given me a drug simple marijuana and I tried it and very quickly I became addicted all kinds of drugs including cocaine, hallucination drugs, LSD at the time. I’m talking about 20 years ago I’m talking about more than 20 years and it was much easier to get and the fact that I had money now cash I had no property, I have no family I was by myself only me and my parents. My mother had already had a job at the New Orleans Dental School she is a dentist by a profession. So we were really established and I was using and began spending money on drugs and money began to go right through my hands until I couldn’t quit. I absolutely couldn’t quit. And so it caused me a great embarrassment because I couldn’t quit I couldn’t work I couldn’t continue to work. So I left New Orleans and went to Los Angeles to live away from everybody and everything hoping that something would change something would break for me I would leave my environment. My business was left to my assistant and there it was left to my family I never returned to it. I don’t know what happened to it I don’t know what happened to it I took my cash and went to Los Angeles where it became worse and worse and worse until I fell into the deepest depression that I’ve ever experienced. I didn’t want to live anymore I was embarrassed ashamed and I could not break from it. And even if I would break from myself where would I go the place that I started that caused me to begin to use drugs because of the emptiness of my heart? And then I experienced what is the life? I came to this country to work hard to achieve some success and I had but what is to life I had it and it didn’t satisfy me what was the reason for life? And just about that time I met a German man that Bob York was in Los Angeles he was a big man in Hollywood and I respected him and he’s the first one that shared the gospel with me. I did not like Germans ever since my parents were Holocaust survivors and some relatives died in the Holocaust and I didn’t like Germans at all and neither did my family. But he showed me he first shared the gospel with me but he did not call me to Jesus he just simply told me about Jesus about the Jewishness of Jesus which I thought he was just joking of course. But he was a very nice man and he showed the great love toward Jewish people and that surprised me. And it caused me to think “Why does he really feel like he does love Jewish people?” And after that I had a television experience when I was a little bit drunk and sick and sat on my bed and tried to get away from that feeling of sickness and nauseation I turned television on it was 4:00 in the morning in Los Angeles and guess who was there a preacher was on television pointing his finger towards me literally saying “You are in bed drunk and sick.” Now I did not know who that preacher was and I would never I didn’t even know that it was a Christian program. I thought he just found me exactly where I was I was in bed sitting in bed drunk and was sick to my stomach. And caused me to listen to that program and he said that you “No one can help you you cannot help yourself.” And I could identify with that “Your parents cannot help you because you never even told them” and it was me again. And then “Your friends cannot help you because they are just like you.” And I felt that exactly felt same way truly were exactly like me. “But I know somebody who can help you.” But when I heard somebody I thought it was a doctor I pulled out a pen and wanted to write a name of a guy that was how absolute even I was at that point. And then I don’t remember a word he said until this day I was just waiting for the guys name but the next thing I remember he was crying and begging something people for something I don’t know what it was. And he said “Repeat after me” and I repeated after him the sinner’s prayer on television. I don’t remember what I said I just remember “Repeat after me” and I remember I was looking for a guy somebody to help…it was Jimmy Swaggert actually and I didn’t know at that point and I just repeated the prayer it was 1982… oh 1981 and there was when I finished the prayer the tears started coming out of my eyes and I was surprised that it happened but I was glad that nobody was because I was embarrassed I was actually crying I didn’t know why I was crying. I switched television very quickly.
Sid: Was it unusual for you to cry?
Igor: That’s what I’m coming to yes. Yeah I never really cried unless somebody hit me in the nose I was embarrassed to cry I didn’t like to cry it would show certain weaknesses I felt. And suddenly I was crying real literally crying my eyes…and I found myself crying and I did not want to remember this experience. I just blotted it out of my mind and I said “It cannot happen I’m crying and it’s no good.”
Sid: Did you stay on drugs?
Igor: Huh? Yes nothing changed for 4 more months not a thing, but then 4 months later a friend of mine asked me to go with him to gamble in Vegas. And I thought well that would kind of keep my mind away from everything you know from the culture I was in from the group of people that I was with. A friend of mine who a group of people who I grew up together with from Russia and he said “Let’s go to Las Vegas. And we went to gamble in Vegas I didn’t gamble much money we just simply moseyed around and you know just I felt my time…In Las Vegas I began to feel that I’m totally wasted completely my life is wasted.
Sid: Igor our time is up we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast. Mishpochah you’re going to find out he got something in Las Vegas he never ever expected.
SID: You know, when I was a fairly new Jewish believer in the Messiah I didn’t know a whole lot. In fact, I did a national television show with a woman by the name of Kathryn Kuhlman and I hadn’t even read the New Testament. But I got, because it was so unusual for Jewish people to be believers in Jesus at that time that’s why I got that kind of acclaim. But I had a friend and I still have him today, he’s another Jewish believer. Some of you might have heard of him. He has a television show. His name is Rabbi Jonathan Bernis and Jonathan and I used to spend days praying in supernatural languages, praying in tongues, fasting. We had no idea what we were doing for lots of reasons, but I know today what we were doing. The organization I have today, two television networks throughout the world, I prayed that into existence by praying in supernatural languages and I didn’t even know what I was doing. And Jonathan did the same thing. He has an international organization all over the world and we birthed it by praying in supernatural languages. One day I got a phone call from Jonathan and he said, “Sid, God has told me to go to the former Soviet Union. The doors have just been opened.” And I said, “Boy, what a great idea.” And he said, “Let’s do a Jewish music festival.” Jews weren’t even allowed to live like Jews at that time, in the former Soviet Union. “And we’ll evangelize.” I said, “Sounds good.” So he invited me to be one of the speakers. Let me tell you what it was like then. You had to stand in line for groceries. The hotel rooms were so filthy and so filled with lice and mosquitoes, and things, that a lot of people, they couldn’t stay in a hotel room, so they moved their bed into the hallways. Glass in the borscht, in the soup. I mean, these were tough days. But Jonathan and I were involved in history. We saw, we rented an auditorium and we didn’t know if anyone would show up. It was jammed packed with Jewish people, standing room only. And then I’ve never seen this in my life, when we gave an invitation the Jewish people did not sheepishly come forward, they ran to come to know God. Anyone want to see actual video footage of that event?
SID: If you do not know God.
SID: This is your night in St. Petersburg.
SID: I’m going to pray a prayer for you.
SID: Right now.
SID: And you will know God.
SID: Not just know about him.
SID: And you will know his son.
SID: The Messiah of Israel.
SID: Get out of your seats right now in the balcony.
SID: And come quickly up to the altar now.
SID: And I will pray for you.
SID: Quickly. Quickly, quickly. Show God how much you love him.
SID: If you do not know God, you must come here!
SID: I command you in the name of the Living God!
SID: Quickly! Run down here. Run to God because God is running to you. I say run to the Living God now!
SID: Quickly! We’re going to pray. Quickly!
SID: Repeat after me.
SID: I believe that Jesus died.
SID: Was buried.
SID: And rose from the dead.
SID: His precious blood.
SID: Washed away all of my sins.
SID: I ask Jesus to come and live inside of me.
SID: I make Jesus my Lord.
SID: I am not ashamed of the Good News.
SID: Thank you.
SID: As unbelievable as that was I can tell you that even as I see it now it literally brings all those emotions back. But the doors closed, but I have good news. The doors are just open. When I come back we’ll tell you about it.
SID: So Ana, you’re just minding your own business and you look out, and you see floating in the air someone’s spinal cord. Explain that.
ANA: I was doing healing ministry and I saw this angel one time, walking, carrying a spinal cord. My dad is a chiropractor, so I know what a spinal cord looks like. And he had been carrying this spinal cord, and I thought, I want to follow that angel. So I said to my team, “Let’s go follow that angel. I think God is on something. He’s up to something.” So we followed the angel. Went to this lady who was sitting there, she was in a wheelchair, and we came to her and we said, “Hey, we’ve got great news. There is an angel here holding a spinal cord, standing right behind you. Can we pray for you?” So we went, we laid hands on her, she got healed.
SID: How long had she suffered?
ANA: Like more than 20 years. She had partial paralyzation in her body. There was an auto accident that happened, so she had to have a spinal, like it hit her neck, so it had partially paralyzed the left side of her body. And so as we prayed I could see the angels, like it was almost like transposing, I could see the spinal cord in his hand being placed over her spinal cord. And then I said, “Okay, let’s have you test it out. How do you feel?” And she said, she looked at me kind of reluctantly, like she’s been, you got to be kidding me, who are you to have me to do this stuff? “Just try. Come on, let’s just try.” She stood up and she’s like, I’ve been healed! I’ve been healed!
Woman: I’m healed! I’m healed! Thank you, Lord!
SID: Speaking of being healed, is God telling you about anyone being healed right now? Speak it out.
ANA: Yes. I just feel like that as I’ve been talking about spinal cords, there’s someone here who is listening to this, who needs their back healed. You’ve had an injury that’s been ongoing for years. You’ve probably gone to seek many help, much help from different doctors, and it just hasn’t released. And you’ve got, it’s like a pinched nerve that just shoots pain down your back. And the Lord is healing you right now. Even in this moment, the Lord is healing you and wants you completely set free. So in Jesus’ name, I just declare healing for your spine, from head to toe, that that pinched nerve will be completely healed right now. Thank you, Father.
SID: And get up and bend over. You’ll walk right into your healing. Now Ana, you had an image appear when you were preparing for this television show. Tell me about that image.
ANA: Yes. So the Lord took me up to Heaven and I was seated with Jesus up above in Heaven, and I could see myself with him. And we looked down, and he said, “Ana, extend your hand. Extend your hand.” And so I said, okay. So I reached my hand down and I could see people grabbing my hand, and I would just pull them up with me. I would just pull them up into Heaven. And so that’s what I love to do, is just train people, and I’m excited for people to get these encounters, too.
SID: I volunteer. How about you, anyone at home do what I’m doing? I mean, faith without corresponding action is dead. Would you pray for me and for everyone else right now.
ANA: Yes. In Jesus’ name, I just, God, we just love you. We love, this is all about you, God. We want to encounter you. We want intimacy with you, Jesus. It’s not about having a supernatural encounter just for a crazy experience, but God, it’s about getting to know you and having intimacy with you. So Father, right now, I just pray for just the ability to see in the Spirit just to be released right now to everyone in this room, to everyone that’s watching this or hearing this message, that you would be able to open, God, you would open all of our senses that we could see you with clarity, see your angels, see the heavenly things with clarity, Father. Come with your presence, God.
SID: When she talks about the love of Jesus, which she experienced in Heaven, people get healed. Get ready. Tell me about the love of Jesus from Heaven.
ANA: One day God, I had a real hard day with my daughter. And I said, Lord, would you just take me to Heaven, please. I need an encounter with you, God. So he took me to a room and God, sometimes it’s like the Lord will go with me in a room and then other times he won’t. So this room, I stood outside the door and I was with God, and I said, “Are you going in with me?” And he said no. And so I put my hand on the doorknob, and when I put my hand on the doorknob, the presence of God was so strong. Sometimes I’m allowed to go in the rooms and sometimes I’m not, and I can just see what’s on the other side of the door, and that was one of these encounters. The power of God was so strong, I could not go in the room, but I could see what was on the other side. So he showed me, and I saw, I could see Jesus on the cross. I don’t have the theology to explain that. I’m just telling you, Sid, what I saw. I could see him on the cross and it was the most beautiful, horrific sight I’ve ever seen because I could see him in his broken state with all the blood, with all the wounds, everything, his flesh torn back, I could see it. I turned to God and I said, “I want to go in there. I want to go in there with Jesus. Why can’t I go in?” And he said, “Ana, you don’t know my love.” And I got offended. I said, “What do you mean, I don’t know your love. This is Christianity 101. I know that you love me and I love you. What do you mean?” He said, “You don’t know my love like that.” And I was undone by that. At that point, I just let go and I just crumpled on the floor, and I was just crying and crying, and crying because it’s like I just realized how much of the Father’s love I still had yet to really understand and experience. And then Jesus then, after some time I cried and cried, and cried, Jesus came to me. He came and it was like he was off the cross. His body was healed in his glorified state. He came and he picked me up, and he held me, and he just rocked me back and forth, you know, like you rock your children, he just rocked me. And he said, “Ana, you don’t have to stay like this any longer.” And then out of nowhere I started laughing. I mean, it’s like, why would I laugh. I started laughing and he said, “There you go. There you go. In my presence there’s fullness of joy.” And I felt the joy of the Lord just being released. I mean, I felt so much joy in that moment and so much freedom. And so that’s the love of the Father. That’s the best.
SID: I pray that you have experiential knowledge of Jesus, that you have your own experience and experience the pure undefiled, holy love of the Father.
SID: Ana, how did you start developing this seer gift?
ANA: So when I was 22 and I started seeing, the Lord taught me some things to train in it. I would be very intentional. I’m very intentional every day to spend at least ten minutes a day, and now it’s more than that. But at first, ten minutes a day, and to ask the Lord to encounter me with just my senses, and I would pray always, Lord, open my senses to experience you. I would shut my eyes. The Lord would start showing me a picture. I would ask the Lord, show me a picture, either the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, whoever, to encounter me. Because sometimes the Lord would encounter me as God the Father or sometimes Jesus, or sometimes Holy Spirit would come, but encounter me. And I would see a picture, whether it be just, it started like footsteps. I’d just see footsteps and that was it. And then I’d say, and that was it, footsteps. Okay, what do I do with that. So I would write it down in my journal, and then I’d say, okay God, take me back there. The Lord would show me more. Next time it would be like I would be walking following the footsteps, and the next time I would feel the grass under my feet, and then the next time I’d smell the grass. So seers use all of their senses. It’s not just about sight. We can taste, we can hear, and then every time I would ask for more and more, and more, until it became going to Heaven and I’d get to experience and walk in Heaven with the Lord, and see things. And I’d always ask, can I come back, God, take me back.
SID: I asked you on the telephone, what was one of the most profound things that you observed when you were in Heaven, and you came right out with it: his eyes. Tell me about that.
ANA: There is nothing like the Father’s eyes. He’s taken me to Heaven and there’s times where I’ve gotten to just look right into his eyes and they’re alive. There’s so much, it’s so hard to describe what God’s eyes are like, but it’s like the sovereignty and power, and authority come through his eyes. You could see fire, but at the same time, they’re warm and gentle, and full of so much love. It’s like he would look at me, and all in my impurities, who am I, little Ana. But he would just look at me and just the amount of love that would come through those eyes, there’s just nothing like it.
SID: You pray for people often to be healed. Tell me about this woman that you must have had tremendous compassion for, 17 years of chronic pain and a lot of other stuff. What happened?
ANA: Recently, a lady came in to our healing rooms and she had 17 years of issues going on in her body, pain and autoimmune system problems, and chronic fatigue, and doctors just couldn’t pinpoint it, what was going on. They’d run her through test after test. So she comes in and she starts telling us her story, and on her body, as a seer, I could see. So on her body I could see little holes, looked like little wounds, and I could see them oozing. And so I said, “Would you mind if we could pray for any emotional wounds. I just feel that’s where the enemy might have his hand. He might be working over you, and that’s why maybe you’re sick. Is there anything going on?” And then our team got a bunch of words they heard from the Lord about certain things. And as we prayed for those she got healed. She got healed. As she got healed emotionally, we could see sickness come off of her. But as we prayed, one by one, one thing just melted off of her, and she got healed. It was amazing.
SID: Now when you got to Heaven, many times you’re taken to specific rooms. My producer said be sure to ask Ana about the mailer room. What is that?
ANA: I love the mailer room. One day God took me to Heaven and I walked into this room, and I could see, as far as my eyes, I could see shelves and I could see these little packages on the shelves, and it was like as high up as I could see and as far as I could see. And I could see angels, and it was a busy room. There’s just angels bustling all about the room and I could the Lord. I could see Jesus right in the center of the room, and I could see these angels go and look, and take a package, and tuck it in there, and then go [whoosh] down. And they get their instructions from Jesus. And then certain angels weren’t moving though, and like some of them were just standing still at the shelves and waiting. I asked Jesus, “What’s going on here in this room?” And he said, “These are my messengers and they’re bringing answers to my saint’s prayers and these ones are waiting for the prayers to be released.” So they’re waiting for people to pray and they are just waiting to bring that answer.
SID: So it’s a two-way relationship.
SID: The angels respond to us asking. If we don’t ask, we don’t get. Sounds like Scripture.
ANA: Yes. It’s, my whole idea of that has been changed since that moment.
SID: Okay, this is what I know. There are some angels with packages from Heaven and they want to deliver it to you. You ask and you shall receive. We’ll be right back.
SID: I have Joan Gieson here and many of you might recognize her. If you’ve ever seen Benny Hinn on television and you’ve seen a woman with a microphone and she says, “Pastor Benny, this person has just been healed of this!” That’s Joan Gieson. But there’s something you don’t know. She is affectionately called the Miracle Woman. She walks around and sees the presence of God on someone and knows a miracle is ready to take place. Joan, it’s hard to believe, but there was a point, you have two small children, you’re married and all of a sudden you’re blind and all of a sudden the doctors say you’re not going to live, you’re going to die. Tell me about that time.
JOAN G: That makes me cry when you even say that, and it’s been so long ago. We got married, an Italian with a big wedding. It was a perfect wedding and it was a little bit later that I conceived of our first child, and he was born and he was beautiful. We named him Michael and he was the apple of our eye, and he was good, and he grew up a little bit. He was about two years old and one day I stooped over to pick up something he had dropped and when I straightened back up I couldn’t see. I had gone blind. Well literally it scared the bajiggers out of me.
SID: I’m sure.
JOAN G: Within the next two weeks I saw probably 15 doctors and they found hemorrhages behind both eyes and the optic nerve was swollen into the brain. And they didn’t know what the cause was, what would happen, how it would work, but the rest of my body is deteriorating while all that is happening. One day I am a productive wife and a mother and the next day I can’t see and can’t do the housework. Four years it went like that. Four years and now it was time for Michael to go to school. First day in school he helped me on the bus and I sat outside the room of the school, the room that he went in, in the hall. The teacher came out in the room that Michael was in and said, “Joan, Michael is sick. You’re going to have to take him home.” I said, “Judy, I don’t see. I don’t drive. I can’t do that.” And with that the lady that I had seen in my spirit was at my side and said, “I heard what you said. I’ll be glad to take you home.” On the way home that lady led me to Jesus and it was the first time.
SID: You get born again and you only know the term because she uses it.
JOAN G: That’s exactly right.
SID: And you tell your husband. He thinks you’re a little, I’ll use a Hebrew word even though you’re Italian, he thinks you’re a bisha meshuga, a little crazy.
JOAN G: In Italian it’s basa.
SID: Same thing. Okay. And you heard a voice. What did that voice say on the radio?
JOAN G: Well that was a few days later. I’m sitting at the table and I’m waiting for my Michael to come home on the bus. And all of a sudden I hear this voice say, “Hello there. Have you been waiting for me?” Well that wasn’t a Lutheran voice. It scared the bajiggers out of me. I quickly turned the radio off. Second day I heard the same voice: “Hello there.” Boy, I turned that thing off. And the third day I didn’t hear that. I heard a woman say, “I was so ill the doctors said I was going to die and all I did was lift my hands and God healed me in that service.” Well I listened until the program. It said, “This is coming to you from the Kathryn Kuhlman Foundation in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I called Frank and I said, “Frank, get home. Jesus right now is in Pittsburgh healing people!”
SID: Don’t say that when I’m drinking.
JOAN G: Well I did. I did. Well the courtyard of that First Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania was full. When the doors opened everyone just pushed us. We weren’t accustomed to anything like that. Nobody ever sat on the front seat of our Lutheran church. Nobody sat on the middle seat.
SID: No one wanted to.
JOAN G: No. And now they’re pushing us in. And we get in and we sit there, and I’m seeing Frank. “Frank, there’s a light on my head. Tell them turn off the light.” Oh my gosh.
SID: You’re blind.
JOAN G: I’m blind.
SID: You see light on your head.
JOAN G: I am lit up like a Christmas tree. I can feel that. “Frank, there’s a light on my head.” “No honey, open your eyes. There’s no light on your head.” “Frank, tell them to turn the light off.” “Please Joan, you’re scaring me. There is no light on your head.” And when I opened my eyes, sir, I could see all the way to the altar. I could see the stained glass windows. I could see the multitude of people and I was in the 53rd row and I could see everything. I said, “Frank, I could see!” He said, “No you can’t.” I said, “What?” I mean, we’re totally displaced. We knew nothing of this territory. “Frank, I can. I can see!” “No you can’t. Stop it, Joan.” And I said, “Frank, I can see that you’ve got a blue shirt on. You’ve got a grey…” “You can see.” “Yes. This is what we’ve come for.” And on the way home in the car I said, “Frank, I am going to go home and get every sick person I know. We’re going to charter a bus or a truck, or a car, or how many ever come with us and we’re going to take them to another miracle service.”
SID: How many years did you assist Miss Kuhlman?
JOAN G: Nine and half years until the day she went home to be with Jesus. And Gene Martin, which was her manager, called us and said, from the hospital, he said, “I am in the hospital with Miss Kuhlman and she said, Joan, get prepared because yours is the next service that she’s going to have in St. Louis.” What a thrill.
SID: I tell you this. Your miracle is in the bank!