Sid: Well, after listening to David Jones this week I am sure you’re red hot for the Messiah. But something happened to me and I had nothing with the open vision that David had, but almost simultaneous to him having the open vision of The Day of the Lord. Where he was literally in that place, he saw it, he felt it, he smelled it. Everyone of his senses was activated there. I had a dream, and in the dream I was told 3 times, Jesus is coming back soon, He said “I’m coming back soon, I’m coming back soon, I’m coming back soon,” 3 times. “I’m coming back soon,” and I have to tell you I wasn’t even thinking about that. I mean I’m kind of like in the Bible which talks about we’re going about our regular business and then all of a sudden He’s there. I mean I thought maybe a couple of hundred years, maybe 50 years. But that’s not what He said to me. He said “I’m coming back soon.” And you know you would have to be dead not to realize that everything on planet earth is speeding up. I mean take a few things and look at the prophecies of what to look for “It’ll be like the days of Noah” the Bible says.” The acceptability in my lifetime of homosexuality as being acceptable and taught in schools beyond my imagination. Now I have to tell you God sent His Son to die for those that are homosexual but the definition of marriage is beyond the pale of what’s going on as normal. The proliferation of pornography, so many people are being addicted right now, where there are demonic spirits behind them, end time demonic spirits. The proliferation of nuclear weapons, look what’s going on in Iran, in North Korea, I mean these are lunatics and we’re letting them develop their atomic weapons and we know what they’re going to use it for. The Bible says lawlessness shall increase, and look what we’re seeing with the drug traffic, with the sex trade, even using young children. Unbelievable how… but it’s happening so quickly it’s not like the boiling frog on a slow boil it’s a rapid boil that ‘s going on right now. But the Bible says “There is one sign that has not occurred that is going to release the judgment of God on planet earth.” And that sign is found in Joel Chapter 3 verse 1 to 3. “For behold in those days and at that time when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem.” Well that means Israel must be a nation, that means the Jewish people must be in the land of Israel. Have you looked? You can’t read a newspaper today without seeing something about Israel, something about Jerusalem. We’re back look at what Joel says that is a sign. He says “When that occurs I’ll gather all nations and I will enter into judgment with them there on account of (and get this) and God calls the Jewish people in the land of Israel My people, My heritage Israel.” And I’m reminded of Zechariah in the Living Bible it says “He that touches Israel is the same as someone that pokes their finger in God’s eye.” And it says “Whom they have scattered the people the nations that have been scattered to the nations of the earth.” It says “Whom they have scattered among the nations.” And here’s the sign, “They have also divided up the My land.” So what is the sign that will bring the release of God’s judgment “Dividing up the land of Israel.” Now Jesus said to watch the fig tree, the fig tree is a type of Israel. Listen to this Luke 21 verse 29 to 32. “Then, He (That’s Jesus) spoke to them a parable (Israel and all of the trees the other nations). “When they are already budding,” when Israel is modern day Jewish nation you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also when you see these things happening know that the kingdom of God is near. Assuredly this is Jesus speaking to you right now “I say to you this generation, the generation that saw the fig tree blossom; what’s the fig tree (Israel) what is blossom? That means the Jews are returning to the nation it’s Jewish nation. We are told that assuredly I say to you this generation will by no means pass till all things take place. And then in Luke 21 verse 34 and 35 but “Take heed to yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the cares of this life. And that day comes on you unexpectedly for it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.” And Jesus said “Just before He comes there is going to be a removal of spiritual scales on the eyes of Jewish people.” In fact these are His words in Matthew 23:39 “You shall see Me no more till you say “Baruch haBah Shem Adonai” Blessed is He who Comes in the Name of the Lord.” I found this unbelievable, I got a copy of the Times of Israel as the electronic secular publication newspaper dated November 20, 2013 this the headline of a secular newspaper coming from Israel. “Has the time come to accept Messianic Jews?” And then it sights the pew survey “Pew says 34% of Americans think that you can be Jewish and believe in Jesus. So why doesn’t the established Jewish Community embrace them?” I mean I’d never thought I’d see this from a traditional Jewish newspaper. You see this is ground work that is about ready to happen for the greatest revival the world has ever seen. And what is the greatest revival? It’s found in Amos the 9th chapter 11 – 13. “On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David” the word tabernacle in Hebrew means house or family. So God is saying on that day I’m going to raise up the tabernacle of David, the family of David which has fallen. “And they may possess the remnant of Edom and all of the Gentiles that are called by My name says the Lord who does this thing.” So somehow the Jewish people are going to reach multitudes of gentles when they become believers in Jesus and then it describes a revival like the world has never seen. The harvest is so great Amos says, you won’t be able to get all the fruit until it’s next year’s time to have a harvest. There will be more people saved than churches will be able to hold them. And this explaining to you the great mystery that Paul explains to us in Ephesians the 2nd chapter verse 14 and 15 and 22. It’s talking about Jesus. “He has broken down the middle wall of separation so as to create in Himself one new man from the two” thus making peace, you know the Hebrew word for peace, Shalom. It means completeness as if to say if the two do not become one He’s talking about Jew and Gentile. The presence of God won’t have a complete resting place, but if the two become one. Verse 22 says “In whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” When? When the middle wall of separation comes down and the two Jew and Gentile become one. Now you can understand the prodigal son parable. The older son, he represents the Gentile Christian working hard in the vineyard for his father. Who is well pleased with him, the younger son rejected his inheritance, wasteful living, wasteful spending; wine, woman and song, bankrupt. And then he comes to his senses and in Luke chapter 15 it says you know he’s feeding the pigs and he says “The pigs are eating better than I am but I know what I am going to do. It says “He arose and came to his father, but when he was still a great way off his father saw him and had compassion and ran and fell on his neck. This is the Jewish person coming home to Jesus, the younger son and he kissed him. And the son said to him ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight and I’m no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put a ring on his hand and scandals on his feet.’” I wish I had more time to explain this.
Sid: You know I’ve got to interrupt this right now because God is telling me right now that people’s spines are being healed right now. And backs and pain and necks and any pain it’s gone in Yeshua’s Name. Holy Spirit You interrupt me anytime You want to; I’ve got on the telephone from their home in Casa Grande, Arizona, Pat and Patty McEnnerney. And Pat you and your wife move in such extraordinary power. And one of the keys that opened this up was dying to self. Well, listen there are many believers that say “I’d like to but I can’t; what do I do, what does this die to self mean? I mean it’s all God He’s got to do it; do I have a part?”
Pat: Hallelujah, everybody has a part. Let me just share quickly consecration is the key. And if you take 2nd Corinthians 3:16, 17, 18 is a concentration prayer and it talks about the glory in you as looking in the mirror. And the last of that says “And by the Holy Ghost.” When Adam and Eve when they sinned man fell back in himself and split, separated, the raiment the glory of God. And they lost their heavenly state and Jesus restored us as before sin. Hallelujah and so we have a heavenly state and earthly state and the soul has to be restored. Your spirit when you receive Jesus is instantly recreated and the demonic nature is removed from it. And then you have to put on the mind of Christ; then you have to with trembling and fear walk out your salvation. Many don’t understand that.
Sid: This trembling and fear doesn’t even compute in 21st century American Christianity.
Pat: We’ve lost it. The fear of God must be embraced and cried out for. You must beckon the Lord to draw you into Him. You know it’s His desire.
Sid: You know get practical; what should someone do? A-B-C.
Pat: ABC repent, Lord forgive me I’m blind in areas, I see that I want to be holy and pure and I see that I’m not. Holy Spirit I give you permission to destroy and remove every vice; to remove all hardness of my eyes enlighten my understanding to the Rhema living Word Jesus.
Sid: Why do we have to give God permission; why doesn’t He just take it?
Pat: Awe, that’s the beautiful thing of the gospel; the love that God offers must be received. He’s knocking at the door; you must open it. You know that is a choice; God made a choice that those that rejected Him. And that’s the power of this wonderful love you must receive it. God doesn’t come upon you and take your will away; because that isn’t how God works. It’s a love that will not offend you and making you believe and step into. It’s a love that will bring judgment to all men; no doubt about it. But it must be entered into by saying “Here I am take me.”
Sid: You know I’m convinced that when we get to heaven the big thing that Jesus will say to us is “Did you walk in love?”
Pat: That’s it, you know in the parable Jesus says “Friend,” The parable of the wedding feast. “Friend, where’s your wedding garment?” Well God, Jesus the Father, is talking to a believer that’s cast out. I don’t believe that he’s cast out to hell, but I think that God is calling each and every person that we’re all called. You know our ministry is called in demonstration of phenomenal things they’re just phenomenal the Name of Jesus is.
Sid: Alright I want people to understand the power that you and your wife operate in. Tell me you know that God has really used you with people with AIDS tell me one person, perhaps someone dying of AIDS.
Pat: How about 3 people.
Pat: In the hospital our pastor was giving us a ride…
Sid: Look give me 100 people; just be healed. (Laughing)
Pat: He’d received a call, Pastor Tom had received a call and he said “Pat would you mind stopping at Fairfax Hospital this is in Washington D.C. There’s a young man there with a family that the doctor gives about 12 hours to live and he has AIDS. And I said “Yeah, you know let’s stop we’ve got time.” And as we were walking into the hospital I was crying out to the Lord “Dear God.” And the Lord said to me “I have sent you to set the captives free.” And so they would only allow but one person in the room and I walked in and he was a precious Hispanic man. And I said “Ormando, I am a bond servant, a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, He sent me in here and to lay my hand upon you and God will raise you up out of this bed and He’s going to heal you in 3 minutes.” And he had these huge tuberculosis tumors, and folks I don’t know of many people that have not seen or smelled death this man was gray and he could barely open up his eyes he was in excruciating pain but he had no breath. These tumors were pressing on his throat and his lungs. As I laid my hand on the tumor it vaporized and there was 4 of them. And pretty soon he started screaming because his breath was coming back. And then I rebuked the spirit of death of AIDS and the spirit of pain. Laid my hands on his forehead and anointed him and he leaped out of his gurney, literally it was awesome. And he threw his hands up in the air and started jumping and repenting and shouting the Lordship of Jesus. Now this young man was radically raised from the dead, I mean he was still breathing but he was as good as dead. Another man…
Sid: But did you see the tumors vaporize before your eyes?
Pat: Absolutely it was like my hand touched it and then fell all the way to the normal chest. They were as big as two fists together.
Sid: How long did all of this take?
Pat: Under 3 minutes.
Pat: The next man was a young man who came to a healing conference that I had in Baltimore; he sat in the backroom he was just like a walking skeleton. Many times God’s speaking to me as I preach and so I’m waiting for the Holy Ghost to move people, I’m always waiting for the Holy Spirit to do it.
Sid: Me too, and I get confused when I’m trying to talk my thoughts and listen to God at the same time. I have to stop; God you’re in charge.
Pat: So, finally this young man came up and started to cry and I said “Don’t be ashamed come here.” I said “Are you ready to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior?” He had no faith; I mean he had faith but he had no expectations of God healing him period. But he received Jesus and when I lead somebody in the prayer to receive the Messiah they receive all the gifts and they get baptized with His fire and the power of God came and he fell back on the floor over the tremendous power of God and just laid there. And I leaned over and loosed the spirit of AIDS or death off of him, cast it off. And I said “Young man, by the strips of Jesus Christ this very day you’ve been healed, and 45 minutes later or so he was able to get off the floor. And I said “Now, go get your blood tested and the Lord’s healed you.” He had an appointment on Monday or Tuesday I forget, this was a Sunday, and they got the results back a week after that and he said “The doctor kept running in and out of the room.” (Laughing) There was no trace, and he had a double testing, not only did he have late stage HIV but he also had contracted brain AIDS induced meningitis and there was nothing, pure. The blood was absolutely totally pure, the young man’s put 65 pounds on. And then a few weeks ago we were in South Carolina in our tent and Henry was a street person; a precious black man and I’ll never forget Henry’s smile because all he had was teeth on the side. He was just precious. And he came up, and he sat in the back and finally after preaching we were ministering and he came up. And there was just tears and sobbing and he said “Could God forgive me again, could I come back?” And I said “Oh Henry, how the Lord loves you.” So I led him in a prayer to recommit his life and I laid my hands on him and I rebuked that demon of AIDS. Henry had sores all over his body, all over puss, it was awful. And he had come to the meeting evidently to see if he could get $15 for a bus ticket if you could image this to go to his mother’s funeral. Pastor Glen the next day gave him a ride to the bus depot and Henry sat there smiling. And said Pastor Glen, “Have you notice anything?” And Pastor Glen said “No Henry what are you talking about?” And he said “Look, I have no more sores on my body, that’s the Jesus I know.”
Sid: Hm. Let me ask you something, have you ever seen a Messianic Miracle? A Messianic Miracle is someone born blind that gets their sight.
Sid: Tell me one.
Pat: This year in Diwali, Africa there was a sister that came up in a public meeting to receive prayer and she was partly paralyzed and she couldn’t walk. And the Lord immediately healed her; I mean immediately healed her. And this was a French speaking country, and so I don’t speak French so as I’m observing her not using my prophetic gifts I realized that there’s no pupil there’s nothing. And so through the interpreter I said “Ask this dear sister if she would like Jesus to heal her blindness?” And she had to think about it a minute and finally she said “Oui.” So I could just feel the increase of the presence of God so I laid my hand on her left eye. And I said “Father, in Jesus Name I ask for a creation miracle and I pulled my hand away.” And I said to the interpreter “Tell her to open her eyes.” And so she opened her eyes and covered the right eye and I said “What is it that she sees?” And through the interpreter she says “You look like a tree.” And so I got pretty excited about that so I prayed again and this time I said “Father I thank you for the completed created miracle in Jesus Name.” Holy Spirit I charge You and force the Covenant to come to life.” And I pulled my hand away quickly because I’d been waiting to see myself; God I’ve seen tremendous miracles but I’ve never seen an eye recreated.” And as quick as quick as I pulled my hand away I saw a cloud a vapor cloud form around, swirl around her left eye. And I saw the pupil being created (Laughing).
Sid: My goodness we’re out of time today but tomorrow’s broadcast I’m going to have Patrick and his wife Patty pray for you. Get ready for a miracle Roman’s 11 says “Salvation has come to the Gentile to provoke the Jew to jealousy.” What are you doing; this is the time that the spiritual blindness has coming off the eyes of the Jewish people. This is the time for the emergence of one new man. This is the time for the race to save the world.
Sid: My guest Doug Jones is a teachers teacher; he’s a Professor out at Rhema Bible College in Tulsa, Oklahoma. For 9 years he taught in their healing school; where people came from all over the world with terminal diseases. He actually lived for a season with Kenneth Hagin in his home. And Kenneth Hagin of course has gone home to be with the Lord. But Doug of everything you’ve learned from Dr. Hagin what was the most important thing in reference to healing?
Doug: There was a principal that Brother Hagin would always say after he ministered to the sick. And sometimes even before. Well, in most cases before but sometimes he’d talk about it after-wards. He’d say these words “The moment I lay my hands upon the healing power of God will be administered to your body but what you do with it after that is up to you.” I want to say that again Sid; I can’t tell you how many times I heard him say these words. “The moment I lay my hands upon you the healing power of God will be administered to your body; but what you do with it after that is up to you.” For years I heard him say that and I would travel with him from 1975 until 1979 I pretty well traveled with him everywhere he went here in the states. Now he did take a trip to South Africa that I did not go with him on. But he would minister to the sick, hundreds of people and he would say that over and over. “What you do with it after that it’s up to you.” Finally that statement got to me and I thought to myself “Well, what are you supposed to do with it after that; I mean what’s all this.” And I went back through some of brother Hagin’s teaching in his transcripts and I found a transcript dated January 8, 1982 brother Hagin was teaching in Healing School. Now I’m going to read this word for word it’s a transcript; it’s not an edited thing so it’s going to sound a little different because it is a word for word. But I want to read this to you can see. “I’m talking about once that healing power has been administered through the laying on of hands or through the handkerchief or apron placed upon your body; that healing power goes into your body and it begins to work but what you do with it after that is up to you.” I’m quoting Brother Hagin I was preaching in Beaumont, Texas in January of 1953 and a lady brought her daughter; oh between 8 or 9 years old. She had polio when she was about 3 years old, never had walked another step encased in braces. She carried that little 8 year old girl with those braces into the healing line. I’m sitting in a chair on the platform laying hands on folks. I took the child in my hands and held her; I laid my hands on those little limbs. They were no bigger than just bone and skin. I felt that healing power go into her; oh my heart went out to that little girl then. My daughter that you know was much older than that and a mother herself. (And she was at the same age at that time; identically at the same age about 8 or 9 and he’s talking about Pat his daughter.) And I thought what if that was my daughter; I learned by speaking to the woman that it was her only child; her only child. Now I just had one daughter and one boy and I thought (Oh, my God.) And I said to the congregation what about if this was your child reach your hands out with compassion; reach your hands out with faith towards this child. See and we ought to always get involved in this; it ought not to just be Brother Hagin, oh no, no, no. Read again in James chapter 5 “He says pray one for another that you may be healed” we ought to get involved. And so I said to the congregation reach your hand out in faith, reach out in compassion towards this little child; this little girl; this little child; what if this was your child polio stricken?” There seemed to be no immediate change; oh I had such a strong anointing. I said to the mother “I don’t know everything but I know this “The Lord told me in the vision that when that power leaves your hand and goes into them you know that they are healed, that’s as far as God is concerned it’s done.” I said “If it will help you any at all, I have had a stronger anointing ministering to this child than I had with anybody in this whole meeting; that anointing went into your child’s limbs and into her body.” Well, and this is important Sid, I never tell people to take off their braces or to get up out of the chair or anything unless the Lord particularly leads me or sometimes He tells me too. Sometimes you’ll just have an inward intuition but if you don’t I just leave them in their own chair. It’s not according to my faith Jesus didn’t say to the woman with the issue of blood “Daughter it’s my faith that made you whole.” He said “Daughter your faith made you whole.” And so I had no further leading and I just handed the child back to her mother and she took her into her arms and went back to her pew. And then we finished the healing line and they went home. At the 10:00 service the next morning the pastor came running up to me because I stayed there in his home. I was in the bathroom shaving; I could hear his voice you know and I knew that he was quite excited about something. Brother Hagin, Brother Hagin! “You know that lady that was there last night with that little child girl with polio and all the braces.” And I said “Yeah, ‘Well, she’s out there, the braces are off and the child is healed.’” He had the woman to testify and then that night the same night the same thing, the girl walked up and down the aisle all around where everybody could see her. The little limbs you see had completely gown to the same size as the one as the other and it was several inches shorter; it was just as long and just as big around as the other limb. Well, the mother said “How many of you were here last night?” I guess around 90% of the crowd lifted their hands, she said “You saw what Brother Hagin did and said and so on.” My husband and I went home by that time we had gotten home the child was asleep because it was late. So I just put her in bed she was asleep. I got up the next morning and got her husband off to work, then about 8:00 in the morning she was still asleep and usually let her sleep because she is the between 8 or 9 years old. Because she’s never gone to school she can’t walk so I just let her sleep and so I went in as usual as my custom was to give her a bath. And that’s the only time I remove her braces is when I put her in the bath tub. So I drew the bath water then I went into the bedroom awakened her, picked her up carried her into the bathroom; removed her night clothes, took off the braces. She’s not any better, not any better, I put her in the bath tub and she’s 8 years of age but because of her crippled condition I have to bath her. I got down on my knees and I begin to bathe her and I begin to cry. The tears fell off of my face into the water; I said “Oh God, why, why, why, I wanted my baby, I wanted her to be healed; she’s my only child and I wanted her to be healed so badly. And she said “Something on the inside of me.” See, she’s born again and the Spirit-Filled Christian really, it was her spirit, the Holy Ghost in her spirit. Something in the inside of me just spoke up and said “Do you believe that Brother Hagin just stood there and in other words just sat there because I was sitting in a chair when I laid my hands upon her; ‘ Do you believe that he sat there on the platform and told a bare-face lie; he said the power of God went into that child; do you think he did; do you believe that?’ No she said “I don’t believe that he lied; I believe that he told the truth.” She said “Something on the inside of me said, ‘Do you believe that Brother Hagin is a prophet of God a man of God?” And I said tried up my tears and I said “Oh God, forgive me of my doubts.” She she’s born again, Spirit-Filled member of the full gospel church but forgive me of my doubts, forgive me, I repent. She said out loud “I believe that Brother Hagin is a man of God (see she’s saying it with her mouth Sid) I believe that he’s called of God, I believe that he’s anointed of God; I believe that he’s a prophet of God. I believe that he told the truth; I don’t believe that he lied.” I believe. Here it is “What you do with it after that is up to you.” That’s what we’re talking about, “I believe that the power flowed into my child; I believe that power is working in my child’s limb now.” See Sid that’s what Brother Hagin is talking about “What you do with it after that.” You have to believe that’s it’s present and that it’s working mightily in your body. Listen to what she said “I believe that that power flowed into my child, I believe that that power is working in my child’s limbs now. See when she said that something like dry sticks popping. I looked down at the bathtub and that limb straightened right out; right there in front of my eyes the child was perfectly healed. Now what am I saying to you? Is the healing power (this is Brother Hagin now.) Is the healing power of God often times is ministered to a person’s body, that’s the reason sometimes it’s 10 days, that’s the reason sometimes it’s 3 days, that’s the reason sometimes it’s not always instant. The healing power of God is administered to a person’s body but the healing process will not be consummated until faith is exercised. “Are you listening to me; are you listening to me?” What he was talking about was simply this Sid, is that that woman in order to keep that power working in her child’s body she had to believe that it was administered; and she had to believe that it was working mightily. Brother Hagin would say these words “The moment I lay my hands on you the healing power of God will be administered to your body but what you do with it after that is up to you.” What happens is this Sid is that people are exiting prayer lines and because they don’t see an instantaneous manifestation then they never consider that the healing power of God was administered.
Sid: Many times I prayed for people; I have felt even though as you have explained in your books, “It doesn’t matter what you feel.” But I have felt the anointing go into the person; the person feels the anointing and guess what they’re not healed. What you’re saying is “That’s how we are missing it.”
Doug: Because they didn’t do anything with it, they didn’t believe that the anointing was administered and they didn’t believe that it was working mightily.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to hear God’s voice for themselves. I can’t think of anything for important for you than for you to hear God’s voice and do it. That’s why I have Richard Mull on this week. And Richard you were a nice graduate of a Baptist School; you worked in denominational churches. No one anywhere taught you how to hear God’s voice; the most important thing. How did you and your wife begin to hear God’s voice?
Richard: Great question and it was you know such an interesting process. You know I teach people now to hear God in a matter of minutes and almost 100% hear God. But when you don’t have a mentor sometimes, you run on almost by trial and error but I was… the very first time that it became desperate I was beginning to really seek God in the Word for hours a day fasting and praying. I wanted to know how to hear God’s voice. I thought alright I’m going to walk up to total strangers like Cecil and give them a word from God. And a couple times where I felt pretty sure I had…
Sid: By the way let me just interject something here. I work a lot with tradition Jewish people and I try to show them. And I have what I consider the greatest proof imaginable that Jesus is the Messiah. But there is almost like spiritual scales over their eyes and they don’t hear me. But one word from God; one miracle, one sign and wonder and the scale just disappears and then they hear the truth. And they receive Jesus; this is so important would you agree Richard?
Richard: Oh yeah, oh yeah. What’s interesting is how many people when you hear God and you give them a word from God it touches people more deeply than anything I could say.
Sid: Okay, tell me the steps that occurred for you to hear God for yourself.
Richard: At first I wanted to do it like Cecil because that was my only experience. And I had things that came to me but I was too afraid to go up to a total stranger and try to do the same thing. And that’s kind of like jumping into the deep end of the pool and so I would ask God’s forgiveness. I’d think I had something to say to someone but how would I know that this is God? So it began for me when I was doing a college retreat; I was seeing so much in scripture I was fasting and praying and crying out to God every day because I wanted to hear His voice. I wanted experience God the way Jesus taught His disciples. I had been asked to speak at this college retreat. And this girl began to pull her shirt and pull her hair and rise.” And I was just a baby in hearing God’s voice and I had been in the “Is this God is this me?” I didn’t have the luxury of figuring that out so I said “God Show me what to do.”
Sid: This was a demon manifesting; did you realize that?
Richard: I had never seen that before; it was a Baptist College Retreat at a mega church and so I had to do what I believed was coming from God. And the girl got freedom; and I turned around and explained to the group what happened and why I did what I did like I understood it. But it was like I knew this is not coming from me even the explanation was not coming from me. I had never experienced anything like that before; I was actually thinking I hope somebody takes good notes because this is really good stuff and I won’t remember it.
Sid: What exactly did you say to this girl that was writhing with a demon controlling her?
Richard: I was led to pray in the Name of Jesus; the blood for Jesus I was saying things in relation to those… first of all you have good theological training you know that those are two important truths but they’ve never been practical. They’ve always been theoretical and theological and right now I need what works. Well, it does work and if you have time to think about it you may come up with it on your own but I was totally at a loss. But the Holy Spirit said “There is power in My Name, rebuke it in My Name.” And so I rebuked the spirit in the Name of Jesus and I couldn’t tell you the words that I said but it had to do with covering her in the blood of Jesus Christ and forgiveness that is in the blood of Jesus. And that breaks the rights that the enemy has and now I do all the time and I understand it and no why it works and how it works. And then it was just I’m saying what I believe the Spirit of God is leading me to say. I did feel prompted to pray in tongues and I knew that I was at a Baptist group and I’d never done anything in tongues publicly and I was like “Oh thanks a lot God.”
Sid: In addition to that you were shouting something; what were you shouting?
Richard: When I finished the tongues I felt impressed to shout freedom in Jesus Name and that was one that I really had a hard time with. Because I thought I must have been watching some TV evangelist I had to pick this up somewhere.
Sid: That’s not you is it? (Laughing)
Richard: Naw, I had never done that before.
Sid: In a Baptist Church! (Laughing)
Richard: Yep, and so I did it in obedience to the Lord. And then it was like I had understanding of the meaning of everything that I did and could explain why I did it. But I knew that that understanding wasn’t coming from me; it was coming by the Spirit even that.
Sid: Even more important what was going on with this woman?
Richard: She got free; she actually immediately after I shouted freedom in Jesus Name she looked at me and put her head down like she was majorly embarrassed because all this happened in front of everybody. Beautiful young woman she was the pastor’s daughter’s best friend. And so I pulled her aside and she said “This is only happened before where the presence of God was and I go to a psychiatrist; I’m on medication for the voices but as soon as you walked in the room the voices went crazy.”
Sid: So in other words demons go crazy when the presence of God is maybe that’s why in a lot of churches the demons you don’t even know that people have demons. I mean does that make sense? (Laughing)
Richard: She said “I picked this church because I knew the power of God wasn’t here.”
Sid: That’s why she went there (Laughing) but she got apprehended by the Spirit of God. Then from that point you started hearing God’s voice but did you know it was God’s voice?
Richard: It wasn’t long; you know it was because I began to have people contact me and want ministry. And I thought “You don’t want ministry from me, I don’t know what I’m doing.” And I tried to find someone else who would do it. And when I would minister to people God would show up; He would show me things, He would tell me things. And it was always I felt like I’d leave floating off the ground because I would know stuff about people’s past; I would hear things by the Spirit. And it helped me to grow in confidence; but that was the only place that I listened.
Sid: You know I happen to believe what you’re describing to me is normal and what most people experience is not normal. I happen to believe the first believers in the Messiah they were all normal. This was normal for them. How about someone that’s saying right now “Oh, Richard Mull he just has a special gift from God; I can’t do it.” What would you say to them?
Richard: I’d teach them the most… I’d teach kids how to handle God’s voice when they hear God; Baptist youth groups. I’ve taught them, every kid in the Youth Group hears God. It isn’t rocket science I think it is supposed to be the norm. In fact on that college retreat I called it Extreme Christianity and it was really a play on words. I used a lot of videos from extreme sports. But what we would call extreme was the norm. “How many of you want to be a normal Christian.” And every kid in the room stood up and I was shocked because I had painted a new picture. And the funny thing is I had never cast one demon out; I had never experienced what I was looking at in the book of Acts. But I was calling them to that type of Christian life.
Sid: Your heart when that was going on your heart had to be just beating; that first deliverance you were involved in. You must have been scared out of your socks.
Richard: I wanted to find the exit, yeah I was ready to leave because I was like “God not here; not now.” That was exactly what I was asking for He was doing but it was also very inconvenient because He hadn’t taught me how to do it. It was on the job training so it was interesting because for six months if I was leading worship somewhere someone would manifest demons. If I was preaching somewhere someone would manifest demons. It was like; it was like God said “You want me to disciple you, you want Me to teach you? I’m going to do it.”
Sid: Okay, our time is slipping away and this Bible is too important. I want people to understand it. Out of curiosity why did you pick the NET, the New English Translation for your Bible?
Richard: The New English translation was one of the more accurate translations; it was Dallas Theological so we wanted to use one of the versions that was highly valued for its authenticity, so that’s part of why it was chosen. The color coding goes back to first of all the words that God Himself spoke. I grew up with the Red Letter Edition and the Words that Jesus spoke. I began to trace every time that God spoke; I had no idea how much scriptures was God speaking first person. So we colorize that purple to represent His majesty. Then we got every angel dream, angel and vision colorized in blue because God speaks through messengers. And then we have scripture colorized brown where God speaks through a human component and brings the message from God but through a human being. And then we’ve got yellow for every miracle because action speaks louder than words. And God has often speaking, he’s reveling himself through the miracles signs and wonders. And finally green represents every time the scripture talks about God speaking about God’s voice. So it could be as simple as the Lord said or the voice of the Lord is powerful.
Sid: But you know what I’ve released everything supernatural you have color coded in this Bible. So you’ll have a laminated bookmark which tells you what each color means and when you get to that you mediate on it and literally the Word is going to become flesh. And everything you’re reading about you’re going to start doing but you also need instructions.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Sr. Pastor of Miracle Place Church in Baton Rouge Parish, Louisiana. We found out that Ricky was in what TV portrays as the fun life. He started out with thing like alcoholic and marijuana and quickly moved into hard drugs and shooting heroin, and then became a dealer. He got arrested a number of times and he escaped from jail; they were going to put him in prison. And he was running from the police in the woods for 56 days. He had no water; he had no food; I mean the things he had to go through to survive it’s unbelievable. And he finally went to his mother’s house and his mother didn’t even recognize him because he had dropped so much weight. And he had been just living in the wild like a wild person for 56 days. And so the police caught him, he was booked; he was facing life in prison. He’s in the cell and officer’s that was involved in that chase trying to find him when he was in the woods walks in. His name is Officer James and he sees him in the cell and he gives him a Bible. What happened next Ricky?
Ricky: Sid I’m hopeless my friend; I’m facing a life sentence in Angola. Twenty-two years old watched my whole life flash before me because of chasing the wrong things in life; drugs and alcohol; the party life. And so here I am looking for answers; their talking about giving me a life sentence and I realized that I wasted my life. Some kind of way that I’ve wasted my life; I’ve gotten off I’m chasing the wrong thing. I’m doing the wrong thing and now I’m in jail so I started looking for answers. And so I think that every person needs to be honest with themselves and asking this one question. “What in the world is the vision of life? What is the purpose for life?” And that’s what I started asking myself. I got real here I am in jail and this is reality and this is serious. And so I started looking for answers and Ernest James the Jailer; and by the way he is the one that chased me across the field. He brought me a Bible back and he said Ricky he says, “Every question that you need answered the answer will be found in this book,” and man I was desperate; just desperate. So I started reading the Bible. And as I started reading the Bible I realized that life was really about serving God and was really about serving people and doing that which was right. And so the more I read the more hungry I got for His word and then ultimately Sid something supernatural happened in my heart and my life. And all I can say is the desire in my life; all of the sudden the desire to want to live in the world; to chase drugs and to chase woman and to do the party thing all of a sudden in my heart in my life I had another desire a desire to want to love; a desire to want to serve; a desire to want to do what was right. And so that’s what’s taking place in my heart and in my life. And you know I reached a place where I was sick and tired. I call it sick and tired of being sick. And that’s where there’s a lot of people in our world today and they’ve tried all the things of the world and yet there’s still something missing in their life.
Sid: Okay, so alright you’re in jail you’re reading the Bible you now get sentenced to prison what happened there?
Ricky: They sent me to penitentiary and what I did was I committed my heart to God from the Bible. And so I went on to jail and in jail I used that time to become all that I could possibly be for God. I used that time to study the Bible. Did over 100 Bible correspondence courses…
Sid: Now what did they sentence you to?
Ricky: They sentenced me to 7 years in the Department of Corrections from St. Francisville. Now I still got the charges that I’m facing in New Orleans which is possession with the intention to distribute 14 pounds of Marijuana and an ounce of Ecstasy there. So they sent me right on to the penitentiary and…
Sid: So what is prison like?
Ricky: Prison is like being caged like an animal; prison puts you in a tremendous bondage like on a chessboard. You’re in checkmate; you can’t go backwards; you can’t go forward you are captive you’re in bondage it’s a terrible feeling. I’ll never forget I was standing in the yard; I saw the guard towers and here’s the guard up there with a rifle in their hand and razor wire on the fences. As I look through the razor wire it was almost like this is a bad dream; this is a terrible nightmare. I can’t believe that I’m in prison because I’m a middle-class guy; I came from a pretty good family moneywise. And how did I get here?
Sid: Now you had at this point accepted the Lord, but even in prison you backslid a little bit. And you felt like God spoke to you; tell me what did He say.
Ricky: Well Sid I started hanging out with people I shouldn’t have been hanging out with at one time. And of course I had just started living for God so I was real young. They convinced me to go out in the yard and smoke a joint. And so here I am on the yard, I smoke a joint but when I smoked that joint I felt a conviction in my heart that I had never felt before. I knew that I was a different person; I knew that life was not for me anymore. Something supernatural had taken place in my life as a result of committing my life to the Lord. And so I went into the dormitory I was so convicted I didn’t want anybody to see me and I felt strange and so I was scared to even face anybody. I got up on my top bunk; I pulled the covers over my head and I asked God to forgive me no less than 1,000 times. Then it seemed that I was brought to a crossroad in my life in the valley of decision. And this was the crossroad; “If you choose to live for Me (God) I will give you your wife back and I will cause My blessing to be in your life. But if you choose today at the crossroad to go the way of drugs the way you’ve been living you are going to lose everything and you’re going to live half of your life in prison.” That’s what I heard in my heart. And I made a decision with my freewill that for me we were going to serve God and we were going to do what was right. And I made that decision 18 years ago and it’s been the greatest decision that I’ve ever made. I got a wonderful wife; my wife is still with me thank You Lord. I got great kids and a dynamic church that I pastor.
Sid: How long did you spend in prison?
Ricky: I did right at 4 years almost 4 years.
Sid: Four years but according to what you should have had you should have had life.
Ricky: But something supernatural happened there too Sid because I wasn’t even supposed to come up for parole. Three felony convictions; I had 3 felony convictions and if you’re convicted to 3 felonies you’re not eligible for parole. Yet they still brought me on the parole board and gave me parole. I had favor! Listen let me tell you something happens when you serve God.
Sid: Now you were concerned, and of course your wife is saved now but you were concerned when you were in prison your wife wasn’t saved. Did you pray much about her?
Ricky: My goodness I had over a 100 Bible correspondent courses I did and I had many of those correspondent course praying for my wife. And ultimately prayed my wife in and that’s what rescued and salvaged my marriage. I would not be married today if it wouldn’t have been for my commitment to serve God.
Sid: Now the thing that intrigued me wasn’t anything that you said so far. The thing that I heard about you Pastor Ricky, and by the way how large is your church today?
Ricky: Eight hundred and fifty people.
Sid: And did you take over a big church?
Ricky: No sir; we started from scratch and I’ll tell you I’ve taken people off the streets. We’ve built this church with people that came off the streets with drugs and alcohol. I have what we call an “All way house.” And that means just simply “All the way for God!”
Sid: Half way doesn’t work.
Ricky: No, if you want a halfway house we’ll find a half way. If you want to go all the way and by the way Sid in anything that you want to do in life and…. you got to be committed; you got to go all the way. And if you go all the way…
Sid: So in drugs you went all the way and in crime you went all the way; and now you’re going all the way for God.
Ricky: Always have been 100%
Sid: But Ricky the thing that intrigued me is not anything that you’ve said so far about you. The thing that intrigues me about you is you had a revelation of God’s love and you communicate that; you exude it to the people. Tell me what that was.
Ricky: What I found out that it’s not about religion; it’s not about tradition; it’s just simply loving God and loving people. And if we’ll just live by that principal then God’s blessing and God’s favor will be upon us and in our life.
Sid: Now listen so many miracles are taking place in your church but we’ll stop right here. I’ll tell you what Mishpochah I believe that you’re going to get a physical healing on tomorrow’s broadcast. Do you know someone caught up in drugs; caught up in the glamor of the fast life? They may not be a dealer; they maybe at the early stages but there are so many people that are about ready to take the path that Ricky took and many of them will die before they have a chance to really live.
Jonathan: Are you serious? Shalom Mishpochah, Shalom family.
Sid: You can’t even pronounce Mishpochah right there’s no way that you could do that Jonathan. That’s my guest Jonathan Bernis and I’m Sid Roth and we’re actually having fun because when you know God you can have fun. But there’s times to be serious and there’s time to have fun. And we want to talk about a serious subject right now. The increase worldwide of anti-semitism. What’s the Biblical origin of anti-semitism Jonathan?
Jonathan: You know Sid I hear all the time that anti-semitism is a totally illogical viewpoint. It’s a totally illogical idea ideology and that simply wrong. Anti-Semitism is very logical, very logical. Let me tell you where anti-Semitism begins and I’ve been doing a lot of research on this. As a matter of fact I’m in the process of writing a book on it. Anti-Semitism origins are Genesis Chapter 3 verse 15. Again let me say that again Genesis 3 verse 15. Mishpochah you should jot this verse down because this is a key verse. And theological terms this verse is called the Pro to-un-galleon.
Sid: Oh e-vey I’m sorry you told me (Laughing)
Jonathan: O e -vey Sid never for get that the Proton-un-galleon.
Sid: Ha, ha I’ll never remember it but go ahead.
Jonathan: Very simply it means pre-gosple. This is the very first declaration of the gospel of God’s future redemption in the scriptures. Genesis 3:15 and you all know the story God has created the world, He has created man. He’s enacted what I call the principal of creation and delegation. He said to Adam “I have created everything, now I’ve delegating it to you; you can do anything you want basically as long as you obey me and don’t eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” And what happened, we all know what happened Adam disobeyed God and the world was catapulted into a state of sin. I mean we don’t comprehend Sid just how severe, how radical the change in the earth was when Adam and Eve sinned. I mean I could give you a long list but it was as very very radical change. And in that day man began to die. In Genesis 3:15 although there a curse that’s placed on both the serpent or Satan and the woman. There is also a declaration of redemption. And I’m going to read the verse in the NIV “And I will put enmity or division between you and the woman between your offspring and hersl he will crush your head and you will strike his heal.” Now it’s a little bit complicated if you haven’t looked at this before but basically what the Lord is saying is that the seed of the woman which is a very unusual statement Sid, that actually the declaration of the virgin birth. Because seed in scripture is carried through the man; it’s transmitted through the man an yet this is the seed of the woman which is the first prophecy of the virgin birth not Isaiah 7:14. And then it says “Her seed.” speaking of course of the Messiah the Yeshua, will crush the head of the serpent an in response the serpent will only bruise the heal of the Messiah. Which is exactly what happened at Calvary. Now why do I set all of this up in this verse? Because I believe that Anti-semitism is a direct response to this declaration of redemption. The Lord is saying to Satan and so Satan is very much aware of this that a day will come in the future when your head will be crushed by the seed of this woman. So this something that Satan has had if you will hanging over his head for how many thousand years? For 6,000 years or how many you date or far back you date Adam and Eve. What am I getting at? Well, the seed the seed of the woman which I call the seed promise is carried of course through Noah and through his descendants and you really don’t hear anything about it until Genesis 12. In Genesis 12 were introduced to a man name Abram. Later becomes Abraham and the Lord makes this incredible statement; He says I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you and through you. Or through Sid, it says in the Hebrew yous seed (or your offspring) all the nations of the earth, all the Goyim the nations of the earth will be blessed. What is that prophesying? It’s prophesying ultimately that through the loins of Abraham, through his seed will come the Redeemer of Genesis 3:15. Are you following me so far?
Sid: So far it makes lots of sense.
Jonathan: So far, so clear. So here’s the simplicity and the logic of anti-semitism. Satan the serpent if you will has a death sentence hanging over his head, that his head will be crushed by the seed of the woman. He then is very much aware of the calling and choseness of Abram and the promise that through his seed the world will be blessed ultimately through Messiah. And so he ultimately understands that this seed promise will be fulfilled through the children of Abram, later that’s through Issac and then Jacob and so on through the 12 children of Israel. Anti-Semitism is nothing more or less Sid than Satan trying to preserve himself. It’s an act of self preservation; because the logic is if I can destroy Abraham and his offspring then I can keep this Genesis 12:3 seed from ever fulfilling this prophecy.
Sid: Yes, I can see that before Jesus came but after He came how does it play out?
Jonathan: Oh Sid that’s the million dollar question, your a great student of the word. Let me just back up a little I’m going to get to that. How clearly it’s demonstrated in scripture. Well, I think it’s very clearly demonstrated because you have throughout the Old Testament attempt after attempt to destroy the Jewish people of course portrayed in Antiochus Epiphanes. Portrayed in the story of Esther, or Purim where a man named Haman a type of anti-Christ tries to destroy the Jewish people. And then ultimately this reaches a crescendo Sid where Herod reaches another type of anti-Christ summons the wise men of Israel and says “Tell me, where will this Messiah be born?” And they quote Micah 5:2 “He’ll be born in Bethlehem.” And so what does Herod do, he sends his troops to kill all male children under 2 years of age. That’s Satan himself trying to preserve himself in trying to keep the seed from being born. That is the Epitome or the climax of anti-semitism the ore-Messiah. So now to get to your question. We understand why Satan tried to destroy the Jewish people and preserve his life and keep Calvary from happening but he failed, right.
Jonathan: Praise God he failed.
Sid: For sure, but we’re going to run out of time if we don’t find out why.
Jonathan: The fact is that he failed, Jesus came He lived a sinless life; He made it though all of that temptation. On two occasions he sweated it out in the garden He said “Your will will be done.” He went freely as the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world at Calvary. Laid down His life for us, was laid in the tomb of a rich man. And praise God Sid He didn’t stay there; after 3 days and 3 nights the Bible tells us that the resurrection power of the Living God came into Him. And He rose from the dead and defeated Satan and his hordes and made a open show of them. Hallelujah! And so all principalities and rulers are under His feet and under our! That’s the great news, that is the gospel.
Sid: Let’s go to that million dollar question now?
Jonathan: Now why has Satan worked then in the last 2000 years to destroy the Jewish people. In fact Sid he’s worked harder in the last 2000 years than he did before Yeshua came. You have of course the Pogroms, you have the Spanish Inquisition; you have the Crusades and ultimately the Holocaust where 6 million Jewish people perished. All because of Satan’s effort to destroy the Jewish people. Well here’s the answer, Genesis 3:15 must not be fulfilled yet. I was taught that Genesis 3:15 was fulfilled with the death, burial, and resurrection of Messiah. Were you taught that?
Sid: Of course.
Jonathan: I was taught that but Sid I’ve come to believe and I really believe the Lord showed me this that that is not the case at all. The Genesis 3:15 will only be fulfilled when Jesus returns to this earth because there is an enemy that stills has to be defeated. And that enemy is death. Satan is still loose, he’s still affecting people’s lives. He’s still the prince and power of the air and ruler over this earth for those that don’t know the Lord. The Bible’s very clear about that and all you have to do is look around Sid and see that evil is really reaching a climax. We are returning to the days of Noah.
Sid: Okay, so if that hasn’t been fulfilled totally experientially yet then why is he so anti-Semitic?
Jonathan: Well, here’s the answer. Satan knew that Jesus had to come through the seed of Abraham. That the seed of the woman was connected to the seed of Abraham and his offspring. And so he said “If I destroy the Jewish people I keep the Messiah from coming.” Now this is what most…what Satan understands and most Christians don’t Sid, an everybody buckle you seat-belts and listen closely to this. What most Christians don’t know is that the Jewish people play as an important rule in the return of Christ as they did in the coming, the first coming of Christ. In other words it had to be through the seed of Abraham but Sid the restoration of Israel and the Jewish people must take place before Jesus returns. It’s the pivotal foundational event according to Roman’s 11:25. That the Jewish people..
Sid: You know that really makes a lot of sense to me Mishpochah, I never thought in those terms. But that whole one new man, the Jew and the Gentile becoming one and running that last lap as the anchorman. Boy I’ll tell you what that was worth just waiting for.
Sid: Now I have on the telephone a Russian Jewish couple that is red hot for Jesus, red hot for the Yeshua. Gennady and Svetlana I go back a long time. I remember meeting them I think that it was in Canada in a hotel room and we talked about I have a Messianic Congregation in Brooklyn, New York. And before we knew it the two of them were moving out there and they were pasturing a Russian Jewish Congregation. And who would have known Gennady that so many years later God would birth something with the two of you that would be in my opinion and I believe more important in God’s opinion historic. And I’m talking about we are doing right now in the land of Israel secular Russian radio no holds barred completely proclaiming the gospel to Russian Jews, and offering my book of the 10 Jewish testimonies. The one if you remember I got in a dream from God. God said “More Jewish people would come to know Him through this book than anything that I had ever done.” And we’re making this available free to Russian Jews in Israel that call. We are then plugging them into a Messianic Jewish Congregation in Israel. Gennady it’s almost outrageous that you’re able to reach so many Jewish people in Israel on secular radio!
Gennady: Well to me it’s an amazing situation at the moment. I’ve been in the ministry for about 13 years and I…
Sid: Oh, it’s your bar mitzvah year!
Gennady: Yeah yeah that right. (Laughing) And you know God’s ways are not our ways and when He opens the door He knows what He’s doing. I believe we’re living in the last days and that’s why God’s opening wide doors. Especially for the Russian Jews that are moving out of Russia the formally Soviet Union. And Israel and actually Germany and Europe they’re filled with Russian Jews. Even Montreal where I live it’s over 60,000 population in one city of the Russian speaking people.
Sid: Well, this is beginning and we are looking into getting the broadcast that Gennady and his wife Svetlana are doing in Israel. We already have it now in Berlin, Germany, and this is secular radio and for Russians. And the Russians as Gennady said are the most open Jewish people group on the face of this earth. In fact Gennady many years ago I read a book by a friend of mine his name was Steve Lightle and the name of the book was called “Exodus II.” Did you ever read that?
Gennady: Yes, yeah I read that book before yeah.
Sid: Okay, and I bumped into Steve a few years ago and I said “Steve in your book you prophesied the Iron Curtain’s going to come down, there is going to be major revival in Russia.” And this was before this happened the book was written many years ago. And you were right, but what you described the revival was the most miracles that you would ever seen. I mean people without limbs would get their limbs back. Every miracle that you read in the Bible and then as Jesus said “You’ll do the same works that I’ve done and even greater.” I don’t think that that’s happened yet in the former Soviet Union. And he said “Absolutely not.” So what I believe Gennady is what we are doing is the beginning of this great move of God’s Spirit on Russian Jews.
Gennady: Sid about a year ago when this started our television program across Canada and God spoke to me and He said “The Jewish people are still looking for a sign.” And when I heard this from God I said “This is marvelous it means that the gospel that you preach to the Jewish people today will follow signs and wonders will follow the gospel.” And that’s what I’m standing upon.
Sid: Listen, not only does God say the Jew requires a sign.
Sid: And how have we been reaching, let’s be candid Gennady, how have most of us been reaching Jewish people over the years. Unfortunately, the same way that we’ve been reaching Gentiles over the years and that’s through the brain, through apologetics, through the cerebral area. Billy Graham himself said himself that better of 90% of the people that come forward in one on his campaigns never in a church a year later. Something’s wrong, we’re using a humanistic approach to the gospel and it’s about time we use God’s approach which has always been and He said “I change not,” supernatural.
Gennady: Sid I believe in the Talmudim Apostles they were walking in in the Book of Acts. Actually I call it a book of Action (Laughing) and when I see, when I look into the examples of this people I saw “Lord, use me the same way.” And I feel that it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen and this is the word of God and that’s what it is and God will perform His word.
Sid: Well, I believe Gennady it’s going to be contagious. Large numbers of Jewish people are going to come to know the Lord according to Paul in Romans the 11th chapter the 25 verse it talks about a mystery. It says “For I do not want you brethren to be uninformed of a mystery so that you’ll not be wise in your own estimation.” In other words there is a mystery but that mystery should be revealed to His children and it is right now. And here’s what the mystery is “That a partial hardening has happened to Israel.” What does that mean? That means that most Jewish people have a hardness over us that we’re blind to the gospel, but it’s like spiritual scales. But there are some Jewish people that have broken through not because of us but because of God’s mercy, I’m one of them Gennady is one of them, his wife Svetlana is one of them. And it says this is going to happen when another event occurs. The event that he describes is “When the fullness of the Gentles has come in.” Then you’re going to see the spiritual scales come off of the eyes of the Jewish people. And I proclaim right now that the spiritual scales are coming off of Jewish people therefore it means we are at the fullness of the gentle age. Now it gets better than that; in the past we’ve taken these Jewish believers and put them in boxes called Messianic Jewish Congregations rather than boxes called Gentile Churches. And that was a starting point because God wanted church to get back its Jewish roots and understand that it is of God and it always will be of God. But there’s something better coming it’s called the One New Man and as these Jewish people get saved can you picture 100′s of Paul the Apostles being raised up from these Russian Jews. Maybe some of those 144,000 we read about in the book of revelation. Then this new life if you will comes into the church, the middle wall of separation comes down between Jew and Gentile we became One New Man as Paul said “The true body of Messiah.” And the miracles that were used to reach the Jew it becomes contagious; they jump on the Gentile believers but when the two come together the Jew and Gentile come together and form the complete body of Messiah, the glorious Church comes on the scene and devil watch out. And come quickly Lord Jesus. Gennady is that good preaching?
Gennady: Excellent! Sid I’m just listening and I’m enjoying it. (Laughing)
Sid: Okay, I believe that our Mishpochah must understand the Russian Jew and who better than a Russian Jewish red-hot fiery evangelist and his wife. Gennady you were raised as an atheist and what was life like, and what city was that you were born in?
Gennady: I was born in a small town of Slutz in Belarus and it’s about 60 miles south of Minsk which is the Capital of Belarus. Into a Jewish family we had; actually my parents they told me before the second World War that our city had population of about 80% of just Jewish people. About 20% of the Gentles but after the second World War a lot of Jewish people died. Any way the city where I lived and my wife as well it was quite a Jewish city. Yeah, and in any case we were atheist because we were surrounded by the atheistic society we could not practice anything. The only way that we knew were Jews was by you know by traditions in the family. Parents told us that we were Jews and we knew that we were special and we had a little community on our own and also persecution. We knew. Anywhere you go they would call you names.
Sid: Now did you know, now let me ask you some basics. Did you know the basic Biblical holiday? Did you know about Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Shavuot, Sukkot?
Gennady: No, no, never. I heard something about Passover but that was it.
Sid: What about the Shabbat, the Sabbath?
Gennady: Never celebrate it. Never had an interest in anything like that because no one in my family celebrated Shabbat at all.
Sid: Okay, what about God?
Gennady: No, no absolutely not; I was not a believer I did not believe that God is existed and neither anybody in my family. It was just pure… if it was something concerning Judaism it was purely traditional approach and very very little, that was it. I grew up that way; and you know my interest was in music a lot when I was little and when I finished school my desire was to become a musician, I did.
Sid: What was your instrument?
Gennady: Well my major is drums yeah. But I play a lot of different instruments.
Sid: And so you wanted to be a sup… did you know about the Beatles?
Gennady: Sure, I was crazy about Beatles, and actually Rolling Stones, and The Purple, and Zeppelin these groups that I use to listen in my days in Russia and I paid a lot of money for the records. (Laughing)
Sid: So you knew about the Beatles but you didn’t know about Judaism. Okay, hold that thought we’ll be back on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: As a matter of fact, my prayer is that this week you will have what my guest and her dad calls stubborn faith. Because I don’t think there’s any other kind. Let me repeat it stubborn faith. My gust is Zona Hayes-Morrow daughter of Norvel Hayes. I have to tell you Zona I just read you new book, and although I’ve understood faith teaching for almost as long as I’ve been a believer 40 some years; there is something that comes off the pages of your testimony. You must drive the devil mashuga, mashuga is a Hebrew word it means crazy; I bet you really do.
Zona: That is exactly what my goal is every day of my life is when my feet hit the floor for the devil to be on alert that Zona is up. (Laughing)
Sid: What I don’t understand is why… I mean the average person has faced death in some way or another in a lifetime, but why have you faced death 13 times?
Zona: Well, I would say that the Lord knew; I would say in my past that the Lord knew that my dad was going to be a prominent one of God’s generals. He knew the future; I didn’t know the future, my dad didn’t know the future. But I believe and the Lord says in His word that the children will do greater works than the father and the devil knows that I’m not afraid of him. I’ve been raised around all sorts of situation; nothing surprises me; I’ve seen limbs grow out; I’ve see people healed of cancer; I’ve seen demons manifest themselves, and people from homosexuals to demon possessed; to witchcraft to people that were having sex with the devil to nothing surprises me. And the Lord knows and the devil knows that nothing makes me flinch.
Sid: Well, I have to tell you we are going to help so many people; I personally can tell you having read your brand new book “Get a Grip What to do at the End of Your Rope” that literally that stubborn faith jumped off the pages on me. I needed that; I think everyone listening to us needs that. And the thing that was so amazing to me and in addition to your new book we have a 3 CD set called “Overcoming Faith.” You did this in the midst of a fight stating what you were believing God for. Here’s the difference most people say believe and they give a little teaching but you go step by step of how you walked and how you got your victory. Very few people understand this and in other words it’s one thing to teach as a college professor; it’s another thing to teach by what you have lived; big difference.
Zona: Oh yes, yes that’s exactly right, but I’ve been raised in a house that believing that can do anything.
Sid: But you know what you told me before you went on the air, which I’ve got to have you tell the people is… Now I remember that your father used to teach a lot on the deliverance ministry; and I had heard a story that your daughter lines up her dolls and when she was a baby and was casting demons out of the dolls. Did she really do that?
Zona: Oh yes, she would line up her Barbie dolls and she would lay her hands on them and she would be like it was the cutest little thing she would be like 3 or 4 years old and she would go “Come out.” (Laughing)
Zona: But you know the Lord used my daughter Leigh when she was just a childlike 3 or 4 years old; my dad would bring her up to the altar. And one church in particular was in Jacksonville, Florida at Wally and Gina Thomason’s church and she would say “Papa that little girl needs for you to pray for her.” Well, there was a little girl out there in the congregation; in the middle of the auditorium a little girl about 8 years old. And my dad went to where Leigh told him to go and he got the little girl in the aisle and she said “Her ear.” And this was the Lord using my daughter in her early years and it was just a word of knowledge. My dad started praying for her ear and the next night they brought what looked like a little piece of charcoal. That night the Lord operated on that little girl’s ear. She had an eardrum that was dead and the Lord put a brand new eardrum in her ear and the old eardrum was on her pillow and they brought it to the service the next night. So God he’s used my dad and now he’s using me and any greater works that I do that is what my daughter’s going to do. Do you see what I’m saying?
Sid: Well, that’s the way that it’s supposed to be but I have to tell you most PK’s, that’s known as Pastors kids. They have their rebellion, but when they come back they come back with a vengeance and you’re no different than most PK’s. Your dad was raise Baptist, your parents separated and then divorced; he raised you but he was running like 12 million dollar corporations at one time and running all over the country for Full Gospel Businessmen’s and other groups speaking in those early days. And you were shuttled from Aunt to Aunt and as a matter of fact tell me that time that your dad would take you out to a bad area town where people needed food excreta and he would distribute food to the hungry. But you had a tough time with that; why?
Zona: Well, I always wanted to be accepted you know my mother left when I was 8 ½ and I never saw her again after I was 10. So I lived with my Aunts for a few years but then my dad would always come and get me and this was about 12 when I started going to Brother Little-field here in town-church and he was the one who fed the poor. Well, then I got in high school and you know and dad drove the big Cadillac and I was known as the rich kid and it was embarrassing for me for him to go to the city dump in the big Cadillac and for me to sit in the car with and then get out in front of a poor person’s home and they’ll be children with dirty clothes on. One little baby she was so dirty her diaper stuck to her skin. And they had no food and the little baby walked up to my dad and said “Mr. do you have any milk?” And the Lord spoke to him and said “What are you going to do about it?” And then my dad said in disparity he said “I guess I’m going to go get milk.” Thank exactly what I told you to do; I’ve called you to serve before you speak.” If you can’t learn to be my servant then you’ll never last in ministry. And so I went with him to the grocery store I was just embarrassed it was a time where a teenager wants to be cool at the school and they might see you at the city dump and they make fun. It’s just society, society needs to have a revelation of what God’s love is.
Sid: You know as a teen you also had an interesting challenge and I can picture as a teen not being very happy over this you had 42 growths all over your body. So what did you do you go to the doctor; you have them cutoff and then the growths they just grow right back up. And after doing this a few times your father says “Enough is enough.” And he says “You’re not going back to the doctor” so you’re walking around with these 42 growths that had to be horrible for you.
Zona: Oh it was horrible and the thing is the growth started out small and then when I’d get them cut off by the doctor they’d grow back and bring their cousins with them; I mean they’d bring more growths. And so at the end when he decided that he was not going to take me back to the doctor there wound up being 42 growths on my body large growths,
Sid: But as a teenager that had to be very embarrassing to you.
Zona: Oh, very embarrassing, and so Brother Hagin had come into town…
Sid: By the way here’s what’s so neat some of these giants, these generals she was raised with them Kenneth Hagin; John Osteen, Lester Sumerall. So Kenneth Hagin sees these growths and what does he say?
Zona: Well, he had come into town that day and my dad wasn’t in from work and so Brother Hagen was visiting with a hairdresser and her husband that lived across the street from me and my dad and she did sister Hagin’s hair when she was in Cleveland. And so when I walked in from school and he went “Hey Zona” I said “Hey Brother Hagen.” He said “How are you doing?” I said “I’m not doing too good.” And he said “What do you mean you’re not” and he turned around in his chair and he said “What do you mean you’re not doing too good?” I said “I got dad problems.” And he said “What do you mean you got dad problems?” I said “Well, you see these growths on my hands and my arms and my legs; I’ve been trying to get my dad to take me back to the doctor and have them cut off but he won’t do it.” And then about that time my dad walks in; and of course they greet each other and hug each other because they were like brothers. And he said “Narvel” he always called him Narvel. And he said “I hear that Zona’s got dad problems.” Well my dad cut his eyes over at me and I just looked at him and I just shrugged my shoulders. And he said “What do you mean you’ve got dad problems Zona?” And I said “Well, I’ve been trying to get you to take me to the doctor to get these growth cut off.” And I said “You won’t do it.” He said “Brother Hagen,” and he said Narvel,” He said “Don’t worry about it I can curse those growths at the root and command them to disappear.” And my dad to himself went “Well, I’ve been trying to believe God for 4 years and laddie tat-ta.”
Zona: That’s what my dad thought and he said “I’m going to ask brother Hagin what he does to do that, because he had that in his ministry where he’d curse growths and they would disappear.
Sid: I remember cancer couldn’t stand around him.
Sid: Look we’re out of time right now.
Sid: What happens to a nice Jewish couple in New Jersey where the husband’s in the diamond industry working with Chasidic and Orthodox Jews. He’s Vice President on the diamond exchange 6 figure income and he has an encounter with Jesus. And then his wife has an encounter with Jesus; she’s what we affectionately call in the Jewish community a JAP, a Jewish America Princess. But they had a deniable encounter with the Lord and Bonnie there was a turning point in your life even after that occurred. When the two of you went to visit my friends in a church in Toronto? What happened to you and your husband?
Bonnie: We had gone to visit an outpouring we were told of God in Toronto where the Spirit of the Lord had just had visited a place and people were being healed right in front of us. People were finding Messiah; people were having dreams and visions. It was just an entire encounter with the Spirit of God; things that we can read in scripture were coming to life. They were actually happening and they happened to us as well.
Sid: Now tell me what you observed with your very eyes that happened to your husband there.
Bonnie: Oh my (Laughing) well I experienced my husband king of being nailed to the floor under the power of God, and experiencing the presence of God stronger than ever. My husband was just crawling around; crawling on the floor; and was on the floor of an elevator and nailed just sitting there. Crazy things that just seemed to be crazy at the time which later on which we came to understand where the power of God invades the body the body the body is very weak and feeble and just does not stand up and act it’s normal self. And it was a few days of that and again knowing I was married to a very sane man; we knew that it was just an encounter with the power of God.
Sid: Would you put your husband Felix on I want to ask him what come about this. Felix has a nice job a 6 figure job and Vice President on the Diamond Exchange. But after this occurred for 6 months what was going on with you Felix?
Felix: Sid I was manifesting on the streets of New York City (Laughing) it was just an incredible…
Sid: You mean by manifesting is the glory of God would come on you and you know what some of you may be laughing right now. But you cannot stand when the glory of God comes on you; the Hebrew word for glory is Kavod which means a heaviness. And when the Kavod of God comes on me I can’t stand up; how about you Felix?
Felix: It was the same way I would be going from an appointment to another appointment and as soon as I just began to come into the presence of God this thing began to overcome my physical being and I became completely incapacitated. I remember when my first journey to Toronto I came from rather conservative roots; I’ve always been rather a conservative person. And we came back from one of the meetings and I want to tell you I literally crawled from the front door of the hotel on my hands and knees through the lobby.
Sid: Now you are a Vice President of a large diamond company you’re not supposed to be doing this Felix you know that.
Felix: Yes (Laughing) but it’s just you know an amazing amazing time; I have no explanation other than looking back; the Lord was getting us ready to take a traumatic supernatural step of faith out of a very solid career. Keep in mind that I’m in my mid 40′s, kids in college, we have a home, I have a wife and God was getting us ready to take one incredible dramatic move. I believe that the level of revival that hit our lives was all in preparation for the ministry to the Jewish people.
Sid: Paint me a picture of what is shortly going to happen in the New York metropolitan area; no not just the New York Metropolitan area throughout the world in reference to Jewish people.
Felix: I believe that we are in an hour where God’s arm of salivation He literally is bringing forth his voice. Jewish people are having divine encounters with God because of the hour that we are in.
Sid: Last month you invited me to a series of meetings at your congregation and there were a number of Jewish people there that didn’t know Messiah that came forward.
Felix: Correct we had 6 or 7 people come to faith in Messiah, some of them were Jewish. What was it? Well, in their heart they are already seeking more of the supernatural they’re seeking for God, but there is something in the presence of God, the power of God, that draws His people to them. And that’s what’s happening all over the earth; not only that I believe that we’re in a day that God’s restoring the church. And restoring the hearts of the fathers to the children giving them an understanding of the Hebraic roots and the very purpose of the church in terms of stewarding the end time harvest of Jewish souls to Messiah.
Sid: You know when I first became a Jewish Believer in Messiah in the 70′s in the early 70′s there literally was a move of God’s Spirit. I’m seeing people getting healed right now in their mouth, their teeth are being healed; their gums are being healed. And pain of all kinds especially in the back and neck and hip; pains of all kinds are disappearing. But in the early 70′s Felix when I became a believer there was a wave if you will of God’s Spirit on young people it was called the Jesus Movement. And there were a number of young Jewish people like myself that were swept into the Kingdom. I believe that what you’re saying is history is about ready to repeat.
Felix: Absolutely, absolutely God is getting ready for a move of God; the Spirit of God is coming upon the earth and it is indicative of the soon return of Yeshua. And there is a hunger and longing in the heart of God’s people throughout the earth, throughout the entire earth. Not only just New York City which is a strategic center and political in every way; but God is moving across the entire earth amongst His people powerfully.
Sid: Tell me about your congregation, Beth Chofesh, which means Beth which means House and Chofesh means freedom. Now Bonnie explained yesterday that you were given the name of the congregation supernaturally and you didn’t like it because you thought it was too complicated for people to pronounce. But God made it very clear that that’s the name of your congregation; what’s the objective of your congregation?
Felix: Well, the Bible says “Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom” I believe in 2nd Corinthians chapter 3. And that had always from the very beginning been central to our hearts. You know when we look at Jewish people coming to the Messiah, to me once the Jewish people come to the Messiah they need to come into a relationship; a supernatural relationship with the Holy Spirit. And to allow gifts to operate in their lives because I believe that is what God had intended. And as I looked around not; by any design, not by any conscious effort I realized that there was no places houses of freedom that were “Messianic” in nature. Where the Jewish people could not only come in and retain their Jewish distinction but also experience and to operate in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. So what we see often is we see Jewish people who come to faith, Jewish and non-Jewish we’re a One New Man congregation. This is what is in the center of our heart; I believe both Jew and Gentile are one in Messiah and both of them come into that unity. The Gentile has an opportunity to come into that context to receive the fullness of their inheritance and also to be used fully to a light to the Jewish people. But Beth Chofesh is a place where we say “Lord operate, move and have Your being in this place.” And that is why I believe the Lord has the freedom to operate; we see supernatural things, we see gifts of healing; we continually see the supernatural nature of who God is.
Sid: What are we going to see? I know what we’re seeing right now but I believe that just as we’re going to see an outpouring of God’s Spirit on all people and many Jewish people are going to be swept into the Kingdom. I see an increase in the supernatural and I saw something when I was at your congregation; I saw that you weren’t afraid to pray for hard cases, I don’t mean headaches I mean people that had to have creative miracles. You seem pretty bold in your faith Felix.
Felix: I believe that we have to become a people who believe in the impossible because we serve a God who makes all things possible. I believe that in no way can we limit our faith. Not that a healing for a headache or any other type of ailment even a cancer or whatever it may be but when we see patients, we see people who need a re-creative miracle whether its Spina bifida or any dramatic and drastic condition where a re-creative miracle is needed. God is the God of the impossible; He’s not limited by those things.
Sid: Felix but we are limited by time right now so we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: There is a key, a prayer if you will, that will release blessings in your life beyond anything you ever thought. I have on the telephone from Lancaster, England Peter Horrobin. Peter I have to believe that this is one of the major keys to physical healing; one of the major keys for removing obstacles and barriers between someone and God this most powerful prayer which is a prayer of forgiveness. But we were talking on yesterday’s broadcast about a most important area and that is what about someone that is in an ongoing situation where they’re being verbally abused. How in the world? I mean yes they have to keep forgiving but enough is enough. If you would talk a little bit about this from what you said yesterday and then continue the thought.
Peter: Well, I really feel sorry for people that are in that situation it’s not just sorrow it’s actually a huge amount of compassion because it’s not an uncommon problem. There’s false teaching I believe in the church which says that you just got to keep on forgiving and being a doormat for everybody else. I believe that they’re actually comes a time when one has to rise up in righteous anger; the scripture says “Be angry and sin not” and to actually put up a barrier and say “I forgive you for what you’re doing but I’m not going to allow you to do it anymore.” And sometimes there are consequences of that and of those decisions but it takes that sort of godly resistance to actually bring people to a place of realizing what they’re doing. This often happens inside families where you’ve got maybe a mother, or a mother-in-law, or a brother-in-law, husband and wife, or children and they’ve just taken advantage of people and speak out horrible things day in and day out and they crush people’s spirits. When our spirits are crushed we are really broken on the inside. Now there is a huge amount of healing that God wants to do for the crushed spirit but to forgive and to keep on forgiving is the entry point to that. I don’t think I can go into individual situations.
Sid: You know in your book, I just happen to have a phrase that jumped out at me you said “Even if we forgive someone it doesn’t mean that we trust them; trust has to be earned.”
Peter: Absolutely, forgiveness and trust they’re not the same thing; let me tell you a tragic but not an uncommon story that in a local church where a Sunday School Teacher was found abusing one of the little girls in the Sunday School. And he was brought to the Minister of the Church with the parents and they forgave him and they had misunderstood this whole issue. They felt that because they’d forgiven they had to actually give this man his job back.
Peter: So they forgave him, put him back in the Sunday School and he abused more children. You see forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. Forgiveness it deals with our heart; today I actually have to deal with our own heart and you can’t trust somebody who’s not trustworthy. Jesus Himself didn’t trust himself to people; He was very careful in John 2 verse 24 & 25 it says “He knew what was in people’s hearts therefore he didn’t trust Himself to them.” He’s very forgiving but there’s a huge difference between forgiving and trusting yourself to people. And so we need to separate that out and not to let people feel that they have to trust people whom they have forgiven. Somebody might earn that trust and become trustworthy, but it’s not necessarily the case. In Jeremiah 12 verse 6 it says “Your brothers, your own family even they have betrayed you; they’ve raised a loud cry against you do not trust them even though they may even speak well of you.” See scriptures are very helpful isn’t it in this respect.
Sid: Yes Peter I have to think the biggy for a lot of people involves parents; tell me a little bit about forgiving parents.
Peter: I’ll tell you a story, Karen stood in one of my healing services and she was asking for prayer. She had a kidney problem and the doctors have said “You got a viral condition on both kidneys and there is nothing we can do for you.” And they actually said “You have less than 12 months to live. When she stood before me asking for prayer I was saying “God I don’t know what to pray here I have a heart full of compassion but what do I pray?” And God spoke it right into my spirit and said “Ask her about her mother?” And so I asked Karen about her mother and she said “I don’t know anything about my mother.” She was “16 she got pregnant and I was given away for adoption.” And I spoke to her and I just said “Do you realize that before you were conceived in sexual sin?” And she laughed and said “I never thought about it that way before.” But she said “Yeah, that’s true and I said “Have you ever forgiven your parents for sexual sin?” She said “No, I never even thought about it.” And I said “Have you ever thanked God that you weren’t aborted?” She said “No.” So I want you to do these two things and she did; she spoke out from her heart thanking God for her life and forgave her mother and her father for their sexual sin. As she prayed that prayer something happened on the inside she felt something break in her tummy where she was joined to her mom and as I prayed there was a spirit of cursing that was upon her because the sexual sin of a parents the spirit of infirmity began to leave her and she was delivered of that spirit. Actually that wasn’t the healing, the healing followed immediately afterward like with the woman in Luke 13 when Jesus delivered her of the spirit of infirmity, then He laid His hands on her that she may be physically healed. And I asked another lady member of our team to lay hands on Karen’s kidneys and she prayed there in tongues for 20 minutes asking God to just bring healing. And 20 minutes later all the swelling and the kidney’s had gone down, Karen was able to bend over and to touch her toes which she could never had done before for the pain was so great. She wrote to me 6 weeks later and she said “She’d been back to the hospital, the doctors had said they could find no evidence of the viral condition and to forget what they said last time; they told her “You’re okay there’s nothing wrong.” Now the healing was released in her when she forgave her parents for what they had done.
Sid: What about people that their parents have a particular disease and they have the same let’s take something that’s quite common in our culture arthritis.
Peter: Oh yeah, yeah.
Sid: Give me an example.
Peter: Well, arthritis is something that even the medic’s say that there are certain percentage of the people that have arthritis who themselves are bitter. So people who are not the nicest and the most pleasant of characters let’s put it this way.
Sid: Now that’s not true for all.
Peter: It’s not true for all
Peter: Though there are some who are like that and there is a relinking of the attitude of the heart and the physical condition. Now there are other forms of arthritis that actually seem to come down the generational line. One generation after another after another has a similar sort of problem. There was a lady who asked me for prayer and she had 3 years of degenerative arthritic condition. Her gifting before God was to actually dance and she used to…
Sid: Well, you can see why the devil wanted that curse passed on.
Peter: Well, she wanted to worship the Lord in dance and she couldn’t because of the arthritis. And I said to her “How long have you had this? And she said 3 years. I said “Did your mother have something like this?” And she said “Yes, my mother was crippled with arthritis. And I said “How long did your mother die? She said “Three years ago.” It was a direct correlation.
Peter: Acts Chapter 20 and verse 5 says “The sins of the fathers visit on the children to the third and the fourth generation. And this is a reality that we see sometimes in our working and what has happened in one generation after another and we can break that. In the Name of Jesus we can ask God to just cut that generation line; and that’s what they did she forgave her ancestors for everything they have done, whatever it was.
Sid: In other words you can forgive even though you don’t know what the specific sin they committed was.
Peter: Nehemiah prays a very interesting prayer, he confessed that “I and my ancestors we have sinned.” It’s not a case of forgiving for something specific but it’s a confession… the word confess actually means “I agree with.” I agree that my ancestors have sinned and done ungodly things and I forgive them and I release them into the freedom of my forgiveness. And then we can pray “God will you now cut that chain with Your authority you’ve given us in Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit Lord will you cut that chain.” And there’s many, many people who have got things that have come down the generation line and they need to just say “God my ancestors have sinned, I agree with that.”
Sid: Now this lady who had arthritis just out of curiosity did you see her dance?
Peter: Oh, I did twenty minutes later she was up at the front of our meeting hall and she was dancing and she was worshiping the Lord because the arthritis had been healed.
Sid: That fast!
Peter: That fast, in her case that fast; but sometimes it’s not that fast but in her case that’s exactly what happened.
Sid: So what do you recommend someone does that they have forgiven someone because they know they’re required to by the Bible but there’s a bit deception and every time that person name comes up there is a bad feeling inside.
Peter: It’s not necessarily a bit of deception, see there are layers of pain and just like an onion has many layers and we can have layers of pain. And we can forgive; you see the first act of forgiveness is…..
Sid: So would you call it a process?
Peter: I’d say there’s definitely a process without a doubt because it begins with a choice and let me say this it’s not just a choice because the Bible tells us to. Because the Bible can tell you lots of things and you do them with a bad heart and doesn’t do a slightest bit of difference. We’ve actually got to come to the point that actually in my heart I choose to forgive. I thank God that He chooses to want to forgive me. The story of the prodigal son for example where the father’s arms are wide open, and we actually go to get to that point and saying “God actually I want to forgive.” And it’s not just because I’m being told to do it; because I want to do it and at that point we can actually begin our process. And the process can take quite a while because I have a picture that I use to help people understand here. If you have a bucket of sand and you have a teaspoon and you take out a teaspoonful of sand it doesn’t look as though there is much gone out of the bucket. But you keep on taking a teaspoon out of the bucket and gradually the level of the sand goes down. And you get to the end where there is actually no more sand in the bucket and there is no more pain. And we need to keep on forgiving until the pain is gone.
Sid: Peter, we’re out of time.